Project Lore

Seems to me they are trying to all people rolling hybrids seems odd to me as since the start of wow the trend has usually been that hybrids are often the lowest played classes so this seems a rather superfluous measure against something that isn't likely to happen.
The statistics and trends so far in the 5 years of wow all seem to claim that they apparently need to make some hybrids more appealing notably druids i wonder how pala populations will shift if they are ever balanced for pvp since it seems to me alot of people are in it for ret and holy pvp ownage atm.

i know i already threw my two cents in from the damage meter side of things (mainly just as it ends up after a guild naxx run), but Pete the geek does have a very solid point and i'm not saying which side is right (whether to increase the pure dps damage or not) but it's food for thought.

Having equal dps for hybrids means lazy players, you're not going to get into the hybridness of the roll, you're a hybrid because you want to do many things, not specialise.

I would agree even though my main is a ret pally. It would encourage more dps class to join rather than having most shammy, pallys and druids on raids that can do the same damage as pure dps classes.

I have a Rogue stuck at level 61, because quite frankly, I get embarrassed every time I take him into a dungeon. It's not a lack of skill, something is seriously borked.

Here's my take:

Hybrid classes can fill multiple roles. In the case of Druids and Paladins, they can tank/heal/dps. Warriors and Death Knights can tank/dps. Shaman/Priests can DPS/heal.

Rogues, Warlocks, Mages, and Hunters can only do one thing: DPS. They cannot change spec and gear and fulfill a different role in a group. When you invite one of them, you get what you get.

So, how fair is it that hybrids can do the same job as a dedicated DPSer when they have all of these other options? It's not.

I have a Warlock and Death Knight (tank), both level 80. When putting together a group, there are certain guidelines I have. For instance: I will always choose a dedicated DPS player for my dps slots over a hybrid class. So basically, if there is a choice between a Rogue and a Shadow Priest or a Fury Warrior, the nod will always go to the Rogue.

Nothing is more frustrating than looking for a group for a heroic, needing a healer and seeing 3 Shaman and 2 Priests in LFG with notes that read "DPS." Then, they seem insulted when you ask them if they have a healing set available, or worse they haven't even bothered to put one together at all.

If you play a hybrid class, you should really be prepared to do whatever job your class can do that fulfills the needs of the group/raid. In my guild, players volunteer to respec to fill the needs of the group with no complaint. In return I gladly pay the cost and extra for their inconvenience. I know some players don't like to play certain roles, but I do appreciate it when they're willing to do it to make things work.

I think that pure dps should be slightly higher. If I'm going to toss a heal or two with my maelstrom (I play a shammy) then I am willingly sacrificing my dps for the ability to keep the healers from being completely swamped. I've always been a little miffed that they take _away_ utility to put in more dps for hybrids when I prefer doing other stuff than standing on at someone's ass and then trying to hand it to them for a boring ten minutes of rotation.

And... well... ret pallies have their own issues that deal with how the class is constructed and Blizz just hasn't hit on the correct way to 'fix' them to bring them back in line without nerfing them into the ground.

Playing a hybrid, I've found that I don't mind not being the top dps because, oh hey, I put my effort into making sure we succeed... not wipe because I'm playing the 'I'm winning on threat' game. I don't mind collecting lots of gearsets, nor respeccing, nor other 'drawbacks'. I have high survivability and adaptability and I prefer that to other playstyles.

I really dont know where to stand on this. I'm a ret pally and i pull pretty consistant numbers genrally 6th or 7th on recount, and i sorta agree that pure DPS should have alittle bit of a DPS boost on hybrids.

It just pains me to know that i will never be able to beat our skilled hunters or locks when i finally get as geared as they are, its like hitting that brick wall that you will never over come ya know.

I do like how Pete the Geek put it plainly as play style cause that is what the game is really all about . A person is suppose to go to the store pick up WoW and go "Oh sweet I can play a hunter!" or "I can heal my friends as a priest." All this damage increase decrease is stupid. Just play the game your way.

I honestly like playing both types. Having played for like 2 years a druid i kinda know how it's like being a hybrid. Though now that I have a hunter I'm really getting the feel of the dps and it's an extraordinary sensation :)

im not really sure where I stand on this issue because I have a pally and a hunter both at lvl 80 who are equally geared. I don't really think I would be able to pick one of them to be my "main"

This has been a very hot topic lately, not shown here, but elsewhere in the blizzard forums there was a comment about how in BC pure dps classes were sposed to have that much more dps than hybrid classes. But in WOTLK they wanted every class to have nearly the same dps. IMO this is completely ignorant and stupid on blizzards part. 1. it takes the fun out of beign a pure dps class, why be a pure dps when you can be a hybrid and do just as much dmg, and then heal to boot. 2. It takes out the purpose of being a pure dps class, I was in a raid guild who could clear naxx in about 2 and a half hours, we all had the same level of gear, and me as a hunter was sitting at 10 on the dps charts (out of 25). Why should you roll a pure dps class when you can go hybrid and do just as much dmg with bonuses. I personally think blizzard should ignore people complaining about pure dps classes doing too much damage and realize that's the way its supposed to be. I personally have completely abandoned my hunter because hes useless when every class can do just as much or more damage. To make matters worse, now blizzard is giving the hybrid classes better raid buffs, better than the pure dps classes currently have.. Kick a person while they're down much?

This is a very interesting topic.. I agree with GC, that pure classes should do more DPS, and as you say Bast, You have to get more gear sets, and respec all the time. Yes. But if i, as a warlock want to heal, i'll have to lvl a priest from 1 to 80. I reckon thats alot more work :)

Well imo, hybrid classes were designed to get a little of everything, a jack of "all" trades you have to give the dps only classes a bit of an edge, its only fair.

However, as far as the gear sets mentioned, the same could be said for a dps class, if a mage suddenly wanted to heal, they would have to level an alt and get another set of gear, granted its not the same but you have to admit, the flexibility is nice when it comes to a hybrid. Besides, this update is mostly for the hybrid classes, it dose really nothing more then add a PvE/PvP aspect for DPS classes.

Also, with bliz's upcoming duel spec they settle the second issue of respecing all the time.

And when you think about it, how many DPS only classes out there get spanked by a hybrid on occasion? Its because a lot of the time it comes down to gear and ability to play your class. The general idea is that if you have a hybrid and a DPS only at 110% gear and know the perfect way to play, the DPS class dose that extra umph of damage...in my prospective its only fair.

Ops! sorry, that last sentence of my 2nd paragraph is for the 3rd paragraph.

Sorry for the double post! :/

All in all I think part of the problem with Hybrid vs. DPS classes is damage meters. Without a damage meter to show total damage and DPS stats the success is purely binary and hinges completely on tactical decisions rather than numerical output. Conclusions about having sufficient heals or dps would be based on experience rather than statistics, and playstyle compatibility would matter.

Another way to look at it is this: if you didn't have a damage meter to refer to the end result is all that would matter. You beat the encounter or you don't. Who did more DPS or healing would be irrelevant.

Something to think about: Would your play experience be better if you didn't have a meter telling you whether or not you meet an arbitrary threshold?

I'm just gonna say:

where are the "pure" healing classes?
where are the "pure" tanking classes?

The argument that you "have to collect and maintain all the gear sets" and "you need to play the respec fee all the time" is absolutely ridiculous. If it bothers you, just don't have a gear set for that spec.

I totally agree with "Pete the Geek". I play a Retribution Pally as my main because of playstyle. I've also played a resto shammy(80), prot pally(80 yes another pally), mage(72) and rogue(73) so you can say that I've had more than a glimpse at pure DPS classes.

A lot of the comments seem to forget about TBC era, where hybrid classes were designed to generate lower DPS. The statement said by srmccoy was our daily bread and butter: "I will always choose a dedicated DPS player for my dps slots over a hybrid class"... If you wanted to raid as a pally, you needed to respecc holy.

If I raid as Retribution, i'm there to fill a DPS spot. It's not expected that I tank a raid boss or to pick up the healing job on the fly. In a raid enviroment I am not an hybrid, so why do you expect that I deliver less damage than another DPS? Why bring a class that can deliver lower damage output?

I can understand the statement about healing ourserlves in a fight, however be aware that if I toss a heal I'm lowering my DPS, even with an instant cast because it resets my weapon swing timer. So i have a price to pay if I decide to heal myself.

I really don't understand all that QQ. It´s like saying "I want to top the meters but give me an advantage". Do you really mind If an hybrid can tank and heal or do you only need an excuse to faceroll your way to the top of the charts?

I'm aware that there are balancing issues right now, but designing around DPS differences its not a solution. Balance all the classes and fight in a fair fight for your place in the meters.

I think it's about the way you play. A mage as a pure dps class is a whole different play style then let's say a moonkin, though it's a caster. You got other spells and rotations and whatever. So I can't be bothered if some hybrid class has higher dps then my mage. They should be able to when they do better.

having just taken a hateful strike on my mage from patchwerk for 62000 damage during a wipe (MT died) I have to say I am a bit peeved when I get edged out (or dominated) in damage meters by hybrids. If I'm sacrificing THAT much survivability I should get a DPS boost, OR I should get a survival boost esp since my CC is more or less nerfed to oblivion

Before Dual Specs, there's an argument for Utility classes doing similar deeps to Pure classes.

After Dual Specs, there's not argument for Utility classes doing similar deeps to Pure classes.

hear hear, dovehill

you say shamans can do it all but why cant we tank? we can heal and dps not like a druid or a pally personally its not fair and why do fury warrior always top the charts? arnt they hybrid classes in the same bout as shamans?

you say shamans can do it all but why cant we tank? we can heal and dps not like a druid or a pally personally its not fair and why do fury warrior always top the charts? arnt they hybrid classes in the same boat as shamans?