Hot Button Issue: Raiding Rogue Rotations
Posted by 
Amatera on Friday, June 5, 2009 - 47 Comments Tags: PvE, PvP, Raid, Rogue, ethics, hunger for blood, overpowered, rotations, skills, talents
Amatera on Friday, June 5, 2009 - 47 Comments Tags: PvE, PvP, Raid, Rogue, ethics, hunger for blood, overpowered, rotations, skills, talents
[caption id="attachment_3267" align="alignright" width="300" caption="Don't let those bars fool you! I only use like three or four of those buttons!"]
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The Rogue is, by magnitudes, my favorite class. I've played one as my main (Amatera) for over 4 years now and enjoyed every second of it. Out of all my alts, not one has yet convinced me to give up on the master of melee combat. Or at least what should be, considering the lack of other roles for a Rogue to fill.
No doubt that the class has seen its ups and downs. I was pretty excited by the new abilities and talents introduced with Wrath, but, like many others of my ilk, came away disappointed with a pretty significant (and unexpected) drop in playability caused by the new mechanics. Raid DPS went down the tubes and, on my server, level-capped Rogues were a scarce lot.
Heck, I was (and still am) the only non-alt Rogue in my guild. And I'm surprised that I stuck through it, considering that towards the tail end of Burning Crusade I was regularly in the top 3 for damage and was now struggling to break 10.
Things have taken a turn for the better since 3.1. I've reclaimed my position in the charts thanks to the modification of Hunger for Blood and a slight respec back into Improved Poisons. But it did something else that makes me wonder whether or not playing a Rogue is too easy -- it made my core rotation reductively simple again.
Now, it takes skill and a keen reaction time to play any class well, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm tailing a boss spamming Mutilate and Envenom whilst our healers have their hands full playing whack-a-mole with raid frames. There is a certain sublimity, a zen-like state if you will, about punching only two or three keys and outputting the insane amount of damage that a Rogue can, but I think people get excited about simplicity until they start to feel the guilt of not putting in the same amount of effort as others. Or, at least I do. Maybe not all those chumps riding coattails for gear.
Before 3.1, my rotation was a lot more complicated than it is now (or was when I was playing Combat in BC), but my damage clearly suffered. Having to maintain three stacks of Hunger for Blood and Slice and Dice was a pain, between expensive Mutilates and the occasional Rupture where I could fit it. The thing about Energy is that, even though you may never run out, your cap is always fixed. So when your pool of the good stuff is being sucked dry by a few expensive skills, it destroys your DPS. With a duration of only 30 seconds, Hunger for Blood was the main culprit: easy to let drop, and far too expensive to get running again. Considering I needed the skill's buff to even compete on the damage meters, leaving it out was not an option.
Thus, it seems, that the smaller a Rogue's rotation ultimately is, the more efficiently they can utilize their Energy, and the changes made to the class reflect that. Hunger for Blood now lasts a full minute and need only be triggered by a Bleed effect. In a raid situation, those are going to be a dime a dozen, so unless you're off tussling with some off-tanked mob, you rarely have to worry about it (and it frees you from having to queue up Rupture, as well). Slice and Dice? Well, that's refreshed by Envenom, which an Assassination-specced Rogue should be dishing out relentlessly anyway. Like a Showtime Rotisserie, all you need to do is "set it and forget it!"
Sure, I've found a few ways to improve my utility, even if only by a tad. I'll throw an Expose Armor up on a mob if there are no Sunders to be had, I'll use Feint to ignore some of the crazy Area of Effect damage most of the new Ulduar bosses dish out. Heck, Cloak of Shadows is as useful as ever, especially for those pesky light and gravity bombs XT-002 is fond of afflicting players with.
These skills aren't ever in my regular rotation, but I'd be more than willing to take a slight hit to my DPS if it meant giving the class more raid-enhancing utility skills. Then again, that might go against the selfish, dirty-dealing, throat-slitting, gold-stealing spirit of a Rogue!
Considering these dynamics, must we be crucified for sins we did not commit? My "Damage-Dealer's Burden" aside, is there some way to stop the general populace from slinging bawdy insults our way and sermonizing about how over-powered our class is?
I don't know. Blizzard has stated that they, too, are unhappy with the ease with which a Rogue can obliterate their opponents (especially in PvP). The changes made to Hunger for Blood, after all, were a bit of a hot fix. It's a fundamentally broken skill, once detrimental to the Rogue itself and now detrimental to everyone else (at least in their eyes). Makes you wonder why it was even incorporated as a new talent in the first place if it was going to cause so much trouble.
For now, we wait impatiently for an answer. We have been told that it is not the right time for a total rehaul of the class and Blue posts concerning Rogues have dwindled since the raid damage output issue was finally "addressed."
But there must be other Rogues out there reading this. Let me know what's on your mind! Does "easier-to-play" equal "overpowered?" Do you feel some deep sense of personal guilt when your healers and tanks are yelling at each other as your raid falls apart in front of you, wondering if there was anything you could've done to help? Or do you go stealth and wait in a corner until the smoke has cleared?
Rogue or not, what are your feelings on the ethics of rotation complexity? Do you feel as if the game is at its best when it gives you a lot of skills to manage at once, or is a simple hotbar better and more fun? Does it make certain classes more "fair" to play than others?
[/caption]
The Rogue is, by magnitudes, my favorite class. I've played one as my main (Amatera) for over 4 years now and enjoyed every second of it. Out of all my alts, not one has yet convinced me to give up on the master of melee combat. Or at least what should be, considering the lack of other roles for a Rogue to fill.
No doubt that the class has seen its ups and downs. I was pretty excited by the new abilities and talents introduced with Wrath, but, like many others of my ilk, came away disappointed with a pretty significant (and unexpected) drop in playability caused by the new mechanics. Raid DPS went down the tubes and, on my server, level-capped Rogues were a scarce lot.
Heck, I was (and still am) the only non-alt Rogue in my guild. And I'm surprised that I stuck through it, considering that towards the tail end of Burning Crusade I was regularly in the top 3 for damage and was now struggling to break 10.
Things have taken a turn for the better since 3.1. I've reclaimed my position in the charts thanks to the modification of Hunger for Blood and a slight respec back into Improved Poisons. But it did something else that makes me wonder whether or not playing a Rogue is too easy -- it made my core rotation reductively simple again.
Now, it takes skill and a keen reaction time to play any class well, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm tailing a boss spamming Mutilate and Envenom whilst our healers have their hands full playing whack-a-mole with raid frames. There is a certain sublimity, a zen-like state if you will, about punching only two or three keys and outputting the insane amount of damage that a Rogue can, but I think people get excited about simplicity until they start to feel the guilt of not putting in the same amount of effort as others. Or, at least I do. Maybe not all those chumps riding coattails for gear.
Before 3.1, my rotation was a lot more complicated than it is now (or was when I was playing Combat in BC), but my damage clearly suffered. Having to maintain three stacks of Hunger for Blood and Slice and Dice was a pain, between expensive Mutilates and the occasional Rupture where I could fit it. The thing about Energy is that, even though you may never run out, your cap is always fixed. So when your pool of the good stuff is being sucked dry by a few expensive skills, it destroys your DPS. With a duration of only 30 seconds, Hunger for Blood was the main culprit: easy to let drop, and far too expensive to get running again. Considering I needed the skill's buff to even compete on the damage meters, leaving it out was not an option.
Thus, it seems, that the smaller a Rogue's rotation ultimately is, the more efficiently they can utilize their Energy, and the changes made to the class reflect that. Hunger for Blood now lasts a full minute and need only be triggered by a Bleed effect. In a raid situation, those are going to be a dime a dozen, so unless you're off tussling with some off-tanked mob, you rarely have to worry about it (and it frees you from having to queue up Rupture, as well). Slice and Dice? Well, that's refreshed by Envenom, which an Assassination-specced Rogue should be dishing out relentlessly anyway. Like a Showtime Rotisserie, all you need to do is "set it and forget it!"
Sure, I've found a few ways to improve my utility, even if only by a tad. I'll throw an Expose Armor up on a mob if there are no Sunders to be had, I'll use Feint to ignore some of the crazy Area of Effect damage most of the new Ulduar bosses dish out. Heck, Cloak of Shadows is as useful as ever, especially for those pesky light and gravity bombs XT-002 is fond of afflicting players with.
These skills aren't ever in my regular rotation, but I'd be more than willing to take a slight hit to my DPS if it meant giving the class more raid-enhancing utility skills. Then again, that might go against the selfish, dirty-dealing, throat-slitting, gold-stealing spirit of a Rogue!
Considering these dynamics, must we be crucified for sins we did not commit? My "Damage-Dealer's Burden" aside, is there some way to stop the general populace from slinging bawdy insults our way and sermonizing about how over-powered our class is?
I don't know. Blizzard has stated that they, too, are unhappy with the ease with which a Rogue can obliterate their opponents (especially in PvP). The changes made to Hunger for Blood, after all, were a bit of a hot fix. It's a fundamentally broken skill, once detrimental to the Rogue itself and now detrimental to everyone else (at least in their eyes). Makes you wonder why it was even incorporated as a new talent in the first place if it was going to cause so much trouble.
For now, we wait impatiently for an answer. We have been told that it is not the right time for a total rehaul of the class and Blue posts concerning Rogues have dwindled since the raid damage output issue was finally "addressed."
But there must be other Rogues out there reading this. Let me know what's on your mind! Does "easier-to-play" equal "overpowered?" Do you feel some deep sense of personal guilt when your healers and tanks are yelling at each other as your raid falls apart in front of you, wondering if there was anything you could've done to help? Or do you go stealth and wait in a corner until the smoke has cleared?
Rogue or not, what are your feelings on the ethics of rotation complexity? Do you feel as if the game is at its best when it gives you a lot of skills to manage at once, or is a simple hotbar better and more fun? Does it make certain classes more "fair" to play than others?
Reader Comments (47)
Amatera you said
"I don’t know. Blizzard has stated that they, too, are unhappy with the ease with which a Rogue can obliterate their opponents (especially in PvP). "
Hell yeah they do! They are very challenging in PVP, and although it is your favorite class to play, I know you want all comments here to be honest etc. Well rogues need to be nerfed somewhat, to give others a chance in PVP. There is no chance you can beat 3 rogues on you at once. Which is a dirty tactic..but then again rogues are dirty anyways..yuk :P Just kidding.
But yep Rogues are a plenty on my server. Sadly :( Nerf Rogues
i still hate rogues when i met them in pvp.
I do think some DPS classes have lost their utility in raids. It used to be Hunters, Mages, and Rogues for CC, but now everything is around AoE and like every class has CC.
My only issue with saying Rogues are OP is that the CD on their stuns are pretty much off of each other, and you can over lap like 3 of them on one target. It's fair for them in PvP, but I think it's just too OP and only 1 stun should be allowed on a target.
Just my input... take it how you want.
@ Laeltis
If you take away a rogue's ability to stun-lock in pve/pvp, you take away much of their survivability. While this will make players of other classes giddy pvp-wise (myself included :D), the rogues will be crying and QQ-ing that they're getting killed so fast.
too bad ret pally's have made rogues obsolete in PVE.
and i'm saying this as an old rogue who jumped sip to ret pally once i realized a. they are about ten's time more fun to play and b. it's just the sad truth.
Is a Ret Pally really more fun to play though? I hear they're potentially more simple than a Rogue.
I've always found my nemesis in Mages, though. They have sufficient ways to keep me locked down and, after that, what can I say? Distance kills.
can cloak of shadows really dispell light/gravity bombs?
Almost no Rogues in my realm. We have have lvl capped raiding rogue... all other rogues are lvl 19/29/49 twinks...
BUt yeah shot rotations for rogue should be simple for preserving energy. An Hunter's rotation however is somewhat more complex. I havn't hit 80 so I don't have a rot yet exept my soloiing rotation which would be
Arcane Shot, Serpent Sting, Steady, Steady, Arcane, Steady, Steady, Steady
@ onthebuses
no one should be able to 3 of any class on them, not if your all equally skilled. If you can killed 3 player who have the same skill as you, you are the one playing the OP class lol
damn excuse the spelling mistakes, it late lol
@tarann
Absolutely, I do it all the time. Assuming that I don't get them too close together, it allows me to stay on the boss. And unlike, say, Grobbulus' poison clouds, it doesn't set them off, either. It just plan old gets rid of em.
i have an 80 rogue aswell as an 80 warrior and i must say that i enjoy the rogue alot more.
Amatera, rogues aren't the only "ez mode" dps. Also ret paladins don't take skill just push the buttons when they´re off CD. This is in PvP also.
Until I see eleventy-billion rogues running around instead of eleventy-billion death knights, I'll be just fine with rogues the way they are.
you're whining about rogues in pvp? what about "Skillcane" mages? imma spam arcane barrage and oneshot u noobs!
Big thanks Amatera, I finally know how my rogue's rotation should look like when I reach 80 :D
You should always be keeping rupture up on raid bosses..
So your rotation should look like:
mut -> rupture -> hfb -> SnD -> mut -> envenom, and then you'll get into your cycle of envenom on 4 combo points and rupture whenever needed.
I love playign a rogue and have never felt guilty for it, if a fight starts about the raid its the people who didnt do waht they should ahve's plroblems not mine. on the other hand i do think they should make some fights and pulls in raids where cc is needed and rogues are made to do something other than 4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4
and so on. while i was lvling and doing low lvl instnaces I was not only crucial to dmg but also keeping mobs in controll, i miss that, becouse now i just do my rotation and get gear, i never feel guilty for it, but i do get bored sometimes. as for pvp. . .um. . .i dont pvp.
I play a raiding rogue, but I"m not a mut build, I'm combat. My rotation is different.
combo point, combo point, Slice and dice, combo point, combo point, combo point, combo point, combo point, Rupture.
thats about it and my DPS isn't that bad. I'm hitting 2500-3000k
Rogues are very easy to play when the boss strat are given out. I always find it funny to hear what the tanks and healers and even the range DPS has to do sometimes, and for Melee like us its "don't stand in bad stuff and hit the boss"
I've got 4 80's at the moment, paladin with Ulduar healing and tanking gear, Shaman gear with 25 naxx enhance and elemental gear, DK with 25 naxx tanking gear and rogue with 25 naxx gear and I can say that every one of them is easy enough if you know what to do. Rogue's having an "easier" rotation doesn't mean they're overpowered. Have you ever played a ret pally? That's one easy class. If you branch out and try each class you'll realize that as long as you know what to do it all seems incredibly easy, not necessarily overpowered.
@ Arassar
Amen! We have some pretty good DKs in our guild, but it gets to be a pain in the ass when that's all that we seem to find on our recruitment page!
@ L
Yeah, Ulduar has some pulls that need CC, namely those in the antechamber leading to Kologarn and the mobs that guard General Vezax, but on the whole, I do kind of miss sapping. :)
@ Brian
I'm still not convinced about the damage value of Rupture over Envenom. I figure if I've got the combo points, Envenom's got the higher damage, and if other people in the raid are adding bleed effects, then I'm set with Hunger for Blood. I mean, I'll toss up a Rupture if I know I'm going to be off the boss for awhile (Razorscale returning to the sky, for instance).
@ Jason
lol so you do 3milion dps
/
its a shame that there's always going to be some overpowered class and it will be next to impossible to actually make the game balanced and someone will always be QQing
Glad to see a post about Rogues and rotations. Something that's been bugging me for a long time is the 5pt Rupture issue. I HATE when I have a 5pt Rup on my target and want to refresh it only to get the "A More Powerful Spell is Already Active," or whatever the error message is. It's not more powerful, Blizz, it's equally as powerful, let me refresh!!! I'm spent wasting my time and energy regen waiting for the original Rupture to complete. I've actually come up with a better Combat rotation because of it:
2SnD/5Rp/3Env
With AdRush popped, I'll throw 2SnD/4Env/5Rup/4Env
There are only a few times with missed Potency proc's that I lose my Rupture, but it seems to be OK.
i think everyone needs to chill out... rogues kick tits. anyone who says rogues are overpowered obviously aren't fighting pallys QQ...
btw a fellow rogue should help me out when it comes to pvp'ing pallies... i wanna fuck em up!