Wishful Thinking: Fewer-Than-Five-Player Dungeons
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iTZKooPA on Friday, September 4, 2009 - 38 Comments Tags: critical thinking, diverse content, dungeon design, experimental game design, game design, instancing, less than 5 man, less than five man, small dungeons, solo dungeons, wishful thinking
iTZKooPA on Friday, September 4, 2009 - 38 Comments Tags: critical thinking, diverse content, dungeon design, experimental game design, game design, instancing, less than 5 man, less than five man, small dungeons, solo dungeons, wishful thinking Wishful Thinking is a column dedicated to the theorycrafting behind World of Warcraft. No, not the number crunching madness perfected by the folks at ElitistJerks, but the features, abilities, and design ideas that the Project Lore writers conjure from their squishy pink stuff.
A Perfect Example Of A Soloable BossPlease hold your comments until after reading the post. Fallacies and design flaws will be brought to light later in the post.
World of Warcraft's dungeons are absolutely fantastic. They offer bite-sized content (at least since The Burning Crusade) for players with only an hour or so to spare. The challenges are appropriate for the levels required, and include a healthy mix of encounters, trash mobs and loot. Sure, it may take as long as the run to create a group, but that should change with the upcoming cross-server LFG system. I digress. Five mans are as close as the MMORPG comes to offering a multiplayer experience that's deep and goal oriented without requiring an immense time investment. But it doesn't have to be.
Imagine dungeon designs that didn't require five players. Heck, it wouldn't even allow a full handful of Azeroth's finest to enter. These dungeons would be specifically tuned to smaller groups, four, three, two, possibly even a soloable dungeon. They'd be even more bite-sized content (more pickup and play). Challenging the group to push through smaller trash groups and requiring players to maximize the skillsets and abilities made available to them. The inherent need for less people would mean less time forming a group. The new creation would allow for Blizzard to easily return to a long lost dungeon attribute, non-linear gameplay. In short, tons of benefits.
The possibilities of sub five man dungeons are nearly limitless. We'd have soloable dungeons that offer a maximum challenge for every class. Those capable of perfecting their class would be rewarded with maximum loot, those who wipe could be locked out of the instance until the next day. Groups could be split up – Gothik The Harvester style – and forced to help each other through the split paths. The smaller nature of these dungeons would allow for Blizzard to implement experimental gameplay attributes for an increasingly diverse and unique grouping experience.
Running with a priest, rogue and a mage? Well then there'd be no reason to tackle that boss who drops plate and mail. But perhaps you have to kill Big Bad Bossman because he offers the only priest, rogue, mage route to the final encounter. That's right, done well the long lost design method could allow a group that isn't the holy trinity alternate ways through the dungeon. Yes, a design that wouldn't require the holy trinity, a DPSers wet dream.
Now on to the obvious problems with such designs. The main problem is one of balancing. No matter the size of the content balancing is always an arduous task. That fact doesn't change here, and could easily become worse. If Blizzard designed the content to accept absolutely any combination of classes, then balancing would get out of hand. Instead the developers would have to be smart in the creation, designing the experience to only work with a subset of classes. A subset that the players would have to figure out, the hard way. Or they could use the multi-pathing idea to give players multiple routes to try.
Another issue would be loot. Should players be given the same ilvl of loot as a normal five man? What about badges? All of that should be entirely dependent on how difficult a run is – an idea that Blizzard already subscribes too. That's the third issue, the perception that a raid would be easy, or easier, when run with classes x, y, and z. That's pretty much the case right now - run without a Shaman and you feel that lack of Heroism – and won't change until all classes become clones of each other. Or those special abilities are turned into items...
Just do it in five man you say? That's a reasonable point, but there are many ideas that wouldn't make sense, or even be feasible in a five man environment. Not to mention that an attractive factor to these fun sized packages is that they'd be easier for Blizzard to create due to their minute nature. A five man that ended in twenty minutes just wouldn't seem all that challenging, or engrossing.
Blizzard's mantra lately has been that the company wants to offer content to all of its subscribers, not just the hardcore, or the casual. Wouldn't the mix of incredibly difficult solo dungeons and smaller dungeons offer just that? What do you think? Would you be up for the challenge of a soloable dungeon? Interested in experimental design and story telling mechanics? Let's here your ideas for a sub five man group. The best may be selected and expanded upon in the upcoming revitalization of the Design A Dungeon column.
Reader Comments (38)
I've played alot of other MMO's in my day. Some kind of modern idea of MMO is that everything should be instanced in some way, and I'm not sure I like it.
The idea of sub-fiveplayer dungeons is already in effect in City of Villains/Heroes, the newly released Champions Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Now I've tried all of those games I mentioned, and I can't really say I like the idea of one-person dungeons. In those games, it was mostly boring and simple. Sure, WoW could do some advanced shit in a dungeon like that, but you also miss out on the social part of the instance, getting to talk to the people you're running it with! And that's a huge part of doing instances to me.
Either way, just my thoughts on this.
I love this idea, i do play 2man a lot with my wife and enjoy it very much. When we're leveling alts we never get groups for the old world instances we just go through them 2man style, sometimes we have to be a little higher than average but not very often.
Now the idea of having NPC's fill the rolls of other players sounds like a great idea, only problem i see with it on the "solo" front, is a class like a warlock or mage would just dps on the supposed final boss.
Thats not very challenging, the npc's would have to be somehow able to make mistakes, but then that could also cause problems, so it would be a difficult thing to accomplish.
Hybrids wouldnt be a big problem though, when you go to your "class portal" you can easily have it setup to ask what spec you are.
The idea is a good one, but it would take a lot of polish to make it work, and i dont think Blizzard is going to get that big of a rag anytime soon.
I think a 2 or 3 player instance would be a great idea. I usually only run with 2 other people on most days, and I really hate PUG's since there are a ton of idiots out there, all of varying degrees, but mostly coming in two categories....the elite jackass who has to have everything his/her way or the goofball that doesn't know how to play his/her character. Rarely are the times when I get into a PUG when either one (or both) of these outstanding citizen types doesn't exist. So yeah.....a 3 person instance would be a great addition to the game.
On a side note.....I love the blogs and the interesting conversation on this site, but I'm beginning to think they need to rename this site Project Bore.......it's getting to be a lot of the same old, same old around here. We need more videos!! Where the hell are the guys at? It's Labor Day already....summer is over....tell them to get in here and play!! And while they're playing, mic 'em up and film it! Then post the finished product up on the website! THAT is what separates this site from all of the usual WoW sites.....don't forget that!
I Want to keep the team work aspect of it, But I do hate waiting to find a healer or tank for groups on any of my DPS toons. It would be nice if there was a way to come up with a non player character that could heal or tank similar to a pet that you would have just basic control over and it would be enough to get you through some of the tight spots in many instances. It may even make you better strategize the instance as opposed to the tank and spank that most of them have become.
i'd say no, mainly because i'm a priest. and when holy specced there is no way in heaven or hell content will be balanced towards that. Add flimsy armour to an abysmal low dps, hardly any survivability to this mix and in my book you have a recipe for disaster.
There is a reason hardly anyone levels at holy, i did, i know what i'm talking about, for a holy specced priest it takes tremendous skill in pulling, timing, using cooldowns, and basically a lightwell on every pull that has more then two mobs of your level just to survive. Add to that a killing time that goes up into multiple minutes per pull and you can see this won't happen.
The same elite mobs i solo without thought on my lvl 76 dk actually take preperations, timed use of cooldowns, and even potions when done on my ulduar hardmode raid priest.
Though this idea sounds nice, the other two parts of the holy trinity ( tanks and healers ) would be at a large disadvantage. Both these playstyles simply require the use of dps players to get anything done. In effect, with this you are creating dungeons without the need for tanks or healers. yet unplayable for these two classes ( balancing them to be challenging to a 3k dps character compared to a 700 dps healer is simply impossible )
The end effect i see, all dps running these instances, tanks and healers respeccing to their dps tree's just to be able to aswell. And as a final effect. a complete drop in 5 man dungeon's All that will be done are the daily ones and for the rest dps will be busy playing their solo 2 or 3 man stuff.
Obviousely being a healer i've yet to experience groups getting cancelled because a class is missing. i think in my whole wow career, this has happened perhaps 20 times in total. Usually whenever a group is missing a tank i can get someone from my own friend list to fill that slot, and that favour is returned. So my wait time on dungeons is minimal.
And though i applaud the idea of high demanding and high rewarding solo play i simply don't see how the balancing issues can be overcome. A healer simply needs someone in between him and the mobs to get passed certain situations.
The end result of an idea like this would look something similar for healers as this. Dps goes through it in say, 30 minutes. Healers take up to 3 minutes per pull to complete, totaling the instance time upwards to 3 hours. Eventually for healing priests it will come down to wanding, and self healing. Just as how i kill the elites now. i get around 20 seconds of nuke, and then i need to save mana simply because the pounding requires near constant self healing to survive. So it will be shield, wand x2, renew, wand x3, flash heal, wand x2 gheal. rinse and repeat. while keeping up dots. Trust me its boring as hell killing like that. worse, with a flimsy 500 / 1k dps it will take ages to get passed a pull.
why no more videos coming out????? saving up for ulduar or something???
did anyone not read my comment before posting after it???
Sardit???
think Heroes in Guild Wars. you can focus on your role, and that is - healing!! NPC's can dps/tank for you.
Also, for the squishie dps, make the mobs kiteable, or not do much damage, and a different set of mobs by role (tank gets harder hitting, lower health mobs, etc.)
I could see 3 man you could 2 3 combos to allow the most people acces
1 tank 1 healer 1dps
1 tank 0 healer 2 dps
0 tank 1 healer 2 dps
Since most people level in dps spec yet there are a brave few who like to level in the spec they will be end game.
2 people... eh not so hot, I mean 2 people instance would be exactly like how people are 2 maning onyxia at low 70s... long boring fights.... but 3 on the other hand I could see lots of people only have a few personal friends that play at the same time and would still allow a dungeon like feel to it.
As for 4, well thats already what most 5 man duegons end up being by the time of the final boss in PuGs since there is always atleast 1 person in a PuG that's "house caught on fire" or "burguler is raping their wife/husband" and "have to go right now mid fight".
but it would be interesting to see a 3/5/8 player instance with 10/25/40 man raids that would have gear dependent upon how many people it was designed for (IE the larger the group the better the ILevel the drops), it would allow more people access to good gear while still rewarding people who get larger groups doing harder versions. (And yes I do realize 8 people is technically a raid, but really the point was untill all the old 40 mans get taken out since raids have 3 ranks so should regular instances)
Tank, healer, dps group and tank with 3 dps can easly do any 5m heroic atm taken that they're not complete retards.
If I want a solo dungeon i will play a console rpg or even Diablo 1-2-3 hark Is that a nostalgia buff I see wanting a solo dungeon I say I dont want it
I think this is an awesome idea. The worst part of WoW for me is having to get groups to run the content that get's you good upgrades.
Content that doesn't require ALOT of healing would be awesome. You could find way's to make use of bandages, health pots and other "minor" heals to make it possible for 2 man DPS groups to get some gear.
Seriously awesome idea to take the game in a new direction.
This is totally a loaded question. I actually had to design a spec solo dungeon a few years back and it was not fun.
First, there's a question of development time vs. how much players are going to see the content. Naxx HAD to be recycled in 3.0 because less that 10% of players saw it in 1.0. Nax, like every other raid and dungeon, has been made more accessible so more people can experience the content. If you spend 6 month or more working on content you want it to be seen.
Because of all the variables, creating a solo dungeon seems like it would take a ton of development time in order to get it balanced properly. With 10 classes, that's a lot of testing and balancing. Just looking at damage mitigation differences between Plate wearers and cloth wears and you begin to see how tough it would be to create the content.
Really, the only way to make it balanced would be to have 1 or more NPCs fill in the missing role like the quest "Ursoc, the Bear God." You can select which role you want Tur Ragepaw to fill when you decided to fight Ursoc.
It's that or create 10 separate instances for each class that plays to their strengths. But really, you'd just be creating instances that you know only 10% of players will see with no way to share the content. It would be great to do circa level 20 or 30 to help people understand class roles and group dynamics without having them make enemies, but really, people would probably skip over it.
How about hard mode heroic 5 mans for those looking for a bit of spice back into heroic grinding? My guild already does this when we random together. For example, we'll pull all of the trash preceeding a boss to the boss and kill him while leaving the trash alive. It can definitely make a heroic UK a lot more fun....just an idea.