Wishful Thinking: Fewer-Than-Five-Player Dungeons
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iTZKooPA on Friday, September 4, 2009 - 38 Comments Tags: critical thinking, diverse content, dungeon design, experimental game design, game design, instancing, less than 5 man, less than five man, small dungeons, solo dungeons, wishful thinking
iTZKooPA on Friday, September 4, 2009 - 38 Comments Tags: critical thinking, diverse content, dungeon design, experimental game design, game design, instancing, less than 5 man, less than five man, small dungeons, solo dungeons, wishful thinking Wishful Thinking is a column dedicated to the theorycrafting behind World of Warcraft. No, not the number crunching madness perfected by the folks at ElitistJerks, but the features, abilities, and design ideas that the Project Lore writers conjure from their squishy pink stuff.
A Perfect Example Of A Soloable BossPlease hold your comments until after reading the post. Fallacies and design flaws will be brought to light later in the post.
World of Warcraft's dungeons are absolutely fantastic. They offer bite-sized content (at least since The Burning Crusade) for players with only an hour or so to spare. The challenges are appropriate for the levels required, and include a healthy mix of encounters, trash mobs and loot. Sure, it may take as long as the run to create a group, but that should change with the upcoming cross-server LFG system. I digress. Five mans are as close as the MMORPG comes to offering a multiplayer experience that's deep and goal oriented without requiring an immense time investment. But it doesn't have to be.
Imagine dungeon designs that didn't require five players. Heck, it wouldn't even allow a full handful of Azeroth's finest to enter. These dungeons would be specifically tuned to smaller groups, four, three, two, possibly even a soloable dungeon. They'd be even more bite-sized content (more pickup and play). Challenging the group to push through smaller trash groups and requiring players to maximize the skillsets and abilities made available to them. The inherent need for less people would mean less time forming a group. The new creation would allow for Blizzard to easily return to a long lost dungeon attribute, non-linear gameplay. In short, tons of benefits.
The possibilities of sub five man dungeons are nearly limitless. We'd have soloable dungeons that offer a maximum challenge for every class. Those capable of perfecting their class would be rewarded with maximum loot, those who wipe could be locked out of the instance until the next day. Groups could be split up – Gothik The Harvester style – and forced to help each other through the split paths. The smaller nature of these dungeons would allow for Blizzard to implement experimental gameplay attributes for an increasingly diverse and unique grouping experience.
Running with a priest, rogue and a mage? Well then there'd be no reason to tackle that boss who drops plate and mail. But perhaps you have to kill Big Bad Bossman because he offers the only priest, rogue, mage route to the final encounter. That's right, done well the long lost design method could allow a group that isn't the holy trinity alternate ways through the dungeon. Yes, a design that wouldn't require the holy trinity, a DPSers wet dream.
Now on to the obvious problems with such designs. The main problem is one of balancing. No matter the size of the content balancing is always an arduous task. That fact doesn't change here, and could easily become worse. If Blizzard designed the content to accept absolutely any combination of classes, then balancing would get out of hand. Instead the developers would have to be smart in the creation, designing the experience to only work with a subset of classes. A subset that the players would have to figure out, the hard way. Or they could use the multi-pathing idea to give players multiple routes to try.
Another issue would be loot. Should players be given the same ilvl of loot as a normal five man? What about badges? All of that should be entirely dependent on how difficult a run is – an idea that Blizzard already subscribes too. That's the third issue, the perception that a raid would be easy, or easier, when run with classes x, y, and z. That's pretty much the case right now - run without a Shaman and you feel that lack of Heroism – and won't change until all classes become clones of each other. Or those special abilities are turned into items...
Just do it in five man you say? That's a reasonable point, but there are many ideas that wouldn't make sense, or even be feasible in a five man environment. Not to mention that an attractive factor to these fun sized packages is that they'd be easier for Blizzard to create due to their minute nature. A five man that ended in twenty minutes just wouldn't seem all that challenging, or engrossing.
Blizzard's mantra lately has been that the company wants to offer content to all of its subscribers, not just the hardcore, or the casual. Wouldn't the mix of incredibly difficult solo dungeons and smaller dungeons offer just that? What do you think? Would you be up for the challenge of a soloable dungeon? Interested in experimental design and story telling mechanics? Let's here your ideas for a sub five man group. The best may be selected and expanded upon in the upcoming revitalization of the Design A Dungeon column.
Reader Comments (38)
i feel oblidged 2 say this since i have never done it FIRST
anyways....i can c a 4-3man (dps heals tank) or evn 2man (heals tank) but i would miss the team work required.....tht is wt keeps me raiding instead of pvping....the less ppl u hav the less team work u utilize...tht is also somethin i miss about the 40 mans.....the alternate route system idea is kool.....kinda like Co -OP on gears of war....u both take different paths 2 hlp each other out
I would consider this easly soloble for blood DKs, and would actually give people a reason to spec for survivability like they did for lvling.
That sounds very fun, I want it now...
No.
I say go for it. I have young children and it is a problem I have in terms of running dungeons that if I try to do so while my wife isn't home, I run the risk of having to go afk for minutes at a time while I tend to my kids. In a solo dungeon, I could go afk without worry.
I agree both that the idea is sound but that the implementation of it is troubled.
I wrote 3 paragraphs but I erased it because all I was saying was No.
a solo instance sounds like a nice idea, we might not get any badges from it (just some gold), but it would give hunters a reason to spec BM :)
there already are solo instances, they're called questing
As a non-leet hunter, I would have to say that this sounds like an awesome idea, and agree that there would be flaws. However, Blizz could design the dungeon to detect the classes, of the group/individual, that have just entered, and have the instance auto-adjust the bosses to drop gear specifically for that group, via RNG.
Soloable dungeons could add to the player's ability to better learn their class, in a more controlled environment. Giving a hunter to learn to "kite" without the added concern of mobs respawning at a high rate, is just an example.
Rather than being locked out after a single wipe, make it 3 wipes/boss. Infact, if you are struggling to complete the instance in a timely manner, but have other things to tend to, allow the group to return the next day in a saved status. The mechanics are already incorporated with the Heroics system.
I could really see a 2-3 man dungeon, but honestly if your looking to maximize how you play your class(es) you could try to run a 5 man instance with less then 5 people. I've done Sunken Temple and Blood Furnace as a 3-man. granted it was hard but it showed good teamwork and how well the group works.
On the topic of soloable instances those would actually seem fun, especially for those that dont have time to run 5-mans or bigger.
"is a column dedicated to" Don't ever use that again, please.
LoTRO has something like this for dailies - you could call them solo instanced challenge dungeons. Each class could figure out a way to get through but it took some real skill in timing and mob management.
I love the idea of expanding it a little to make it 2,3,4.
Since I usually play with my wife I'd love to be able to do a two person dungeon that was on lvl with our toons.
better yet:
make every dungeon scalable dynamically. Make the loot tables favor the larger number groups/raids. Getting 40 people together get you 100% valuable badges/loot. 2 people get you 2% chance at badge/loot. But you can see the content/story, dungeons with any number of people and beat the bosses with any number of people.
The last instance I went through was Scarlet Monastery (when my 80 was then 40-ish) because I have an f-in' life and can't dedicate 4-6 hour blocks of play time several days a week to grind instances for badges with 9-39 other people on a schedule.
Its be nice to see some of the content I pay for.
Scalable-instances.
@ l33tadin
"….the less people u have the less team work u utilize" is far from reality.
When you have less people team work is what keeps you alive. You are more dependent on those other people. This is generally why 10 man raids are harder than 25 man raids, because if you loose 1 person in a 25 man raid its not that big of a deal (in most cases). If you loose 1 person in a 10 man it is usually very bad.
How about just more 5 man progression?
I'm in love with heroics, I could run them all day on my priest so why doesn't Blizzard create more instances like H ToC designed for a smaller 5 man team. That would shorten wait times for groups and people could form teams that work together as well as arena's.
Personally, this is not the greatest idea. However, what WOULD be a good idea is if they turned all those elites and such in Icecrown into something useful. For example, they have their own "loot" persay. Of course, this would mean a lot of people flocking to icecrown with a group of people to take down the elites for some phat lootz, but still. It would be a good idea for them to be buffed up a little and then given a higher chance to drop gear. Maybe not the greatest idea, but personally I have felt kinda ripped off by the fact that their are a TON of elites ALL over Northrend who do not really drop anything. I know a lot of them are part of quests..but still....
Oh. And another thing. Dear Blizzard: Please bring back the day of the REALLY HARD outdoor bosses. There is just something cooler about being able to kill a guy outdoors instead of in an instance....
Maybe this post would be better if I had had enough sleep last night. In any case, I shall be back tomorrow to revise it probably. :)
Thanks for the helpful "no" posts. Those are very useful!
Your thoughts are interesting, but I believe you categorized the post correctly under the Wishful Thinking title. It's NEVER going to happen.
Fear not though, Runes of Magic does have a solo dungeon in the design you mention. I think it's part of the company's new/upcoming (it's both...) Chapter.
Well, the heroics right now are 2-3 manable in higher ilvl gear. My current tank takes next to no damage in most cases, meaning I can run with a balance dru, spriest, or ele shammy that throws a heal at me every once and a while. Throw in an extra dps for fights that are more time sensitive and you're set.
"@ l33tadin
“….the less people u have the less team work u utilize” is far from reality.
When you have less people team work is what keeps you alive. You are more dependent on those other people. This is generally why 10 man raids are harder than 25 man raids, because if you loose 1 person in a 25 man raid its not that big of a deal (in most cases). If you loose 1 person in a 10 man it is usually very bad."
I completely agree with this. The more people in a group, the less it matters when one dies/messes up.
As a tank I never have problems finding a group to do HC's, I go in LFG and 3 seconds later I'm allready invited. Current HC's are even to short for me, clearing Gundrak for example in under 20m isn'nt my idea of fun, I'd rather have more bosses in a HC then the current maximum of 5 we see. Personally I would like the idea of opening raid content to 5 m groups, scaled down to the setting. It would also give people the chance of seeing those bosses (granted they wouldn'nt be as hard but same tactics) and then knowing what to do while in the real raid.
I don't however like the idea of smaller group dungeon, if I wanna solo thing I just run some TBC HC's
It's all a nice idea. I would love to solo through an instance which had useful loot, but the thing is I doubt it would be fun.
Half the bosses in instances already are just a variation on tank and spank, and most of the time not particularly interesting. The thing with creating small man dungeons (especially with several routes) would mean a lot more designing and coming up with ideas which not only could be used elsewhere (eg in raids) but because of the lack of availability of a set out class structure, the tactics couldn't be as interesting either. (no, slower dps when he get to 30% because then it hurts you to, because there is no healer to heal anyway etc.)
Wishful thinking, I agree. Mostly because I sometimes wish it too.
id say this is what out of dungeon group quests and quest chains are for. thats the "pick up and play" element of wow.
OMG!!
You guys copied my idea exactly! lol. I posted this idea, word for word (with 1 minor detail change) on an MMO champion topic!! I'm glad someone agrees with me and posts it where more people will listen (more ppl listen to a PL Blogger than a random topic starter on MMO champ)
I had a few minor suggestions to support this, they could make the content CHALLENGING for a small group (like a hardmode but for 2-3 people) and reward good loot. The mobs and loot can easily scale with gear (i.e. blizzard sees the party's average iLvL for gear is 200? mob's hp set to a certain value, same with damage, every attempt is difficult like 10H ToC and gear that drops is iLvl 213). When dealing with solo, they could make the encounters designed differently by spec/class (Protadins/Prot warriors/ferals the mobs hit hard, you have a healer friend NPC, and opponents have Low HP, and you kill en-masse, waves of enemies; aoe classes have large AoE pulls to deal with, healers could have NPC figures fighting and they get to *test* their healing skills)
well anyway thanks for voicing my post!
I exactly would a solo dungeon work for the squishies? I assume it would be scaled so that tanks and healers with their significant lower dps could do it, but clothies would be getting a bigger beatdown than the plate wearers. So therefore it would have to be tuned so that clothies wouldn't be hit so hard meaning that plate wearers wouldn't exactly be getting much of an experience. Then there's the whole healing issue, hybrids would be laughing, but non-hybrids would still have to stop every few fights and bandage. Infact essentially a soloable dungeon would be exactly like questing. Except without the whole running to and from quest givers.
As for dungeons with 2-3 players, essentially what you want is to be able to get better gear without the hassle of tanks and healers. Just to go in and faceroll a boss with a couple of dps pals. Well again the boss would have to tuned so that the need for +Def gear isn't needed so the boss wouldn't be able to 1-shot you. Then it would need to be tuned so that the locks, spriests and mages aren't being hit too hard, essentially turning it into a yawn fest. Or just like taking an elite mob out in the wilds that you need to kill for a quest....
I'm sorry but it's a terrible idea on all accounts.
I think this could be an incredible game aspect. Picture yourself walking into a room with NPCs fighting off waves of mobs. You talk to an NPC of your class, and he sends you through an instance portal specially designed for your class. It would be the same mobs and art, but the fight mechanics would be different. As you go on to more complex fights, NPCs could come in as backup like Lieutenant General Andorov in the General Rajaxx fight in the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj. Your class would change what type of allies you get, until you have a full group for the final boss. By doing this, there would be no need to change the final boss, allowing it to showcase Blizzard's best ideas withought them having to be changed for every class.
This would also allow for interesting events. For example, it would be very difficult to tune a Dr. Boom style fight to a mob of fighters, but it could easily be done for just one player. You could put in special boss fights, "obstacle course" paths between bosses, and several other interesting activities. With the minds of Blizzard's development team, this could become an incredible part of the game.