Emblems: Heroism, Valor, and Conquest!
Posted by 
Heartbourne on Tuesday, March 3, 2009 - 29 Comments Tags: 3.1, Patch, Raid, badge, content patch, emblem
Heartbourne on Tuesday, March 3, 2009 - 29 Comments Tags: 3.1, Patch, Raid, badge, content patch, emblem 
Before Burning Crusade hit the shelves, the raiding scene was very different. Raiding guilds would quickly abandon earlier raids like Molten Core once most items were being disenchanted and they wanted to spend more time progressing through new content. Since there was no value in running an easy raid and well-established guilds could just as easily run harder instances with a few ungeared players in their 40 man raid group to gear them up faster, Molten Core and all the level 60 dungeons fell into oblivion.Blizzard sought to change this in Burning Crusade. First, they introduced heroic dungeons, which offered all of the new 5-man dungeons with better gear drops and more difficult mobs. Additionally, all heroics dropped Badges of Justice, which were exchangeable for gear that was on par with raid gear. As more content as released, they wanted to keep heroics relevant. The solution was to add even better rewards for badges at the requirement of many more badges. Eventually, as Karazhan and Zul'Aman became PUGed more often than arranged, they added badges to them so that they stayed relevant to veteran players. Badge gear on par with some of the best raid drops would cost on the order of 150 badges, equaling dozens of heroics for a single piece, but players continued to run heroics.
In WotLK, Blizzard adjusted this system slightly. With the introduction of achievements, heroics would have "hard modes", which would make heroics relevant and difficult to even seasoned players. Every raid has the same system as well, with a normal "10 man" version and a heroic "25 man" version. More importantly, Blizzard introduced a multiple tiered "badge" system. Heroics and the easiest raids, Naxxramas and Vault of Archavon, drop the first tier of badges, called Emblems of Heroism. These are exchangeable for entry-level raid gear. Harder raids drop Emblems of Valor, which are exchangeable for better raid gear. It was inadvertently announced in a post about PvP that a new tier of emblems is to be introduced in patch 3.1: Emblems of Conquest.
One of the announcements that startled some players was that Ulduar would drop Emblems of Valor on normal mode and Emblems of Conquest on Heroic mode. The reason this didn't sit well with some players is that they view Ulduar on the same level of difficulty as existing raid content. Most players agree that raid content is much easier than it was in Burning Crusade and earlier and want it to be more difficult. The hardcore raiders have no use for Emblems of Heroism and their Emblems of Valor are looking to be barely useful already, and with the introduction of Emblems of Conquest and heroic Ulduar, Emblems of Valor will likely be less valued than ever.
A common request is that emblems should be exchangeable at some fixed rate. For example, an emblem of valor could be bought with 5 emblems of heroism. Blizzard does not want to implement this because they want players who want better gear to play harder instances rather than farm easy ones. They don't want raiding to be a grind. Perhaps a better solution is to make existing emblem gear cheaper as new content is released. Then, that shiny 50 emblem sword might cost 20 emblems instead of 50 in later patches, and you've had an incentive to run a few heroics instead of just getting the next tier up.
Another problem is the distinction of PvP gear. Right now, raiders can buy PvP gear with emblems. Without even setting foot in a battleground or arena, they can buy some of the best PvP gear in the game. While PvE players should have access to PvP gear, it shouldn't be that easy to obtain. Rating requirements might be required in patch 3.1 for the best PvP gear, even if you buy with emblems.
The main reason emblems are important as far as a mechanic is that they mark which raids are on what "tier". Here is a list of what raids drop what kinds of emblems. Dungeons in the same grouping have similar drops.
| Emblem of Heroism | Naxxramas (normal) | Used for Heirloom items, iLevel 200 items, Savage Gladiator |
| Vault of Archavon (normal) | ||
| Obsidian Sanctum (normal) | ||
| Eye of Eternity (normal) | ||
| Emblem of Valor | Naxxramas (heroic) | Used for iLevel 213 items, Hateful Gladiator |
| Vault of Archavon (heroic) | ||
| Obsidian Sanctum (heroic) | ||
| Eye of Eternity (heroic) | ||
| Ulduar (normal) | ||
| Emblem of Conquest | Ulduar (heroic) | Used for the next tier of raid drops, Deadly Gladiator |
I personally think that this is a good design philosophy. I didn't get to see most of Black Temple or Sunwell because I couldn't spend enough time playing to raid that much. With all of the content being accessible in normal mode to all players but still having rewarding hard modes, the greatest amount of players are satisfied.
What do you think? Is the emblem system working? Should 10-man content stay easy and 25-man be made hard or should everything be made difficult?
Reader Comments (29)
I've never particularly liked the emblem system. The instant it was introduced it felt like raiding was a grind. To get geared for Kara, coming to BC late, I had to grind out heroics not for the gear in those heroics but for those damn badges. The same thing happened in Wrath to my alts. I understand that it makes it easier for entry-level raiders, but it makes raiding a whole lot less fun when someone who hasn't touched Naxx can have gear that's almost as good as mine.
I've been playing WoW since sumer of '05, but I didn't care much about serious raiding until right before TBC came out. By then, all the older raids were null-and-void, so I've never been into MC, Onyxia, either AQ, (are there more? If there are, I don't know about them!).
I wish Blizz would do something (other than the relatively useless achievement for completeing them) to get lvl 80 players back into those old raids. Give them a heroic mode or something???? I feel like I missed out big time, and I'd like a chance to go back and experience it :(
I'm somewhat in the same boat as a serious casual player. I have one 80 and another on the way, but I've never participated in a raid at the time it would be most relevant.
For example my guild mates and I are 5-manning Kara for fun and getting used to each others raiding style/skills. But its relativly easy =/ I think I won't be able to see any of those nice new items any time soon; I just don't have enough time.
I wish these raids were harder, so that I at least have enough time to gear up for them before they become the next MC or AQ and everyone looks at me funny cause I wanna run them just to see the content.
Yes! Andra you hit it on the nose - we need scaleable difficulty for raids =D Brilliant idea... And why not? How hard would it be to impliment in all honesty?
I love the badge/emblem system. Love it. To raid requires typically hours at a time to play. On a set schedule. I don't have that kind of time in blocks to devote to the game on a regular basis. When I do, however, it helps knowing that I can get into a 10 man group with suitable gear so I don't get crushed in there.
I get the notion, from reading feedback from raiders on various sites, that they HATE the idea of the badge/emblem system because it lets non-raiders get raider equivalent gear. Well what would make them happy? If the endgame is going to be designed as a gear check and Blizz makes it impossible for most people to get the gear, lots of people may not play. If they keep the system in place, raiders might not play.
I don't pretend to know why the hardcore raiders raid as religiously as they do. I am going to assume its for the challenge, since the only thing they complain about more than "welfare epics" is easy content. If that's what they want...hell, Blizz, hit 'em between the eyes with hard stuff. Make 25 mans HARD. Make the hard versions of 25 mans (i.e. Sarth 3D) STUPID HARD...MU'RU HARD.
AND GIVE THEM GEAR THAT THEY CAN ONLY GET FROM DOING 25 MAN ON HARD MODE. (How "good" you make the gear, idk. Make it too good and the challenge of 25 man hard mode is diminished and we're back to bitching about easy content...dam is Blizz in a catch 22 here =P)
If someon's gonna put in the time and effort to raid to that level of precision, they deserve gear that others can't buy with badges. But please don't change a system that lets me get geared to do a 10 man PUG when I have the time.
34 valor's a week is a bit much for the hardcore raiders who will be farming lower raids. This will not only lower the value of valor tokens, as well as there use, but it will also lower the value of the 213 valor BOE bracers, which will swarm the ah's after 3.1.
I think they should mess with the gear instead. The system is awesome, because it alows people like me who can't get into 10mans to get some good gear, instead of farming heroics. The gear probably shoudn't be as good as the gear in the 10mans and 25mans though. That is a tad unfair. It should be that they get you to the bare minimum.
Though, I agree with Andra. They should mess with the old game content somehow. Perhaps redoing them and releasing new versions?
Anyway, good post. It seems relevant to me somehow...
:P
*sigh* Seriously, I'm tired of hearing some people moan and gripe about Naxxramas being easy. Here's a news bulletin, for you guys: YOU ARE SPOILED AND IN THE MINORITY.
Goodness knows I've been in plenty of pugs for Naxx 10/25, and the only successful one I've come across kicked me half-way through "just because". You think you have a hard WoW-life? Why don't YOU be in MY place for awhile.
(And by the way, I think the emblems have been a godsend for people like me. If there was no emblem system, then the ones who got left behind would STAY behind because most players would've already moved on.)
Amen to that Alayea!!!!
i agree with laeltlis, they should make the emblem gear to be JUST good enough to get you to the next tier, so that it requires alot of skill( but not necessarily time) to get you through the content.
Once again most people are not seeing the point to the emblem system. They serve a purpose similar to the DKP system of raiding points. This IS the whole point and benefit of emblems. Ask yourself this question, "I was in a raid lock out all week and didn't get anything, shouldn't I be able to get some gear from a whole week's worth of time?" The answer is YES, and blizz gives you Emblems of *currency*.
As for the heroics giving emblems... that is the point. To be able to gear for raiding.
quick definition of DKP http://www.wowwiki.com/DKP
I just hope that when the patch rolls round I can buy t8 tokens with Emblems of Valor as opposed to only being offered t7.5 tokens, otherwise I think purely 10 man raiders will feel a little left out.
I like the conversion factor, still have over 150 badges of justice I won't use for anything. If it wasn't for all the heirloom gear I would have close to 250 heroism just sitting around doing nothing. They already let you go from valor to heroism why not a similar exchange the other way around. I think a 3-5 to 1 ratio would be good enough.
It would also be nice if this post wasn't written by someone with so little experience in the end game content as it stands. The content is just as difficult as I remember BT or TK being in BC. The difference I see now is the quality of players has improved dramatically. Don't get me wrong there are a ton of baddies out there. But the number of good players seems to have risen so there is a higher ratio. This makes running many of these raids seem easier because more people are pulling their weight. My old friends list of people I wouldn't mind pugging a tough instance with stayed around 10, now that number is around 30. I'm expecting the content in uldar to be equivalent to the sunwell jump in terms of difficulty. At the same time i expect people to claim it is to easy for the same reasons.
Okay....I've been reading some of the comments here and some people have the badge system all wrong.
@ Krafla:
You won't be able to buy t8 tokens with valor. The token systems scale and the gear you obtain in drops is always 1 tier ahead of the dungeon itself. My assumption is that they are further making jumps by offering 2 tiers of loot from a single dungeon.
That is, Ulduar 25 will only require Naxxramas AND/OR Ulduar 10 gear. Just like Naxxramas 10 and 25 was built for 200 blues and some epics.
They haven't "screwed over" 10 man raiders. What they "screwed over" were "10 man raiders" that pugged 25 man content and got a little geared out. And even then, they didn't screw you.
My assumption is that you'll be able to get some items on par with 25-man Ulduar by doing hard mode 10-man Ulduar. Whether or not you want to put the effort to ensure that your 10-man groups are well played enough is up to you. But it comes down to effort vs. reward.
@Kerania:
That's precisely what they're doing. Each zone drops gear that will allow you to complete the zone after that. So that in current zones, once you start farming Naxxramas it just makes it that much easier. Same with Ulduar. DPS will climb higher as people start getting 226 loot.
@Alayea:
If you don't have the time/desire to raid, then don't complain. Nothing going in at the top concerns you. The encounters aren't built for you. There are tons of other things to do in the game.
Plus, nobody said you have to raid when "all the other guilds" are raiding. You could very well find a guild that raids on a Saturday morning if that works best for you. Look around. With realm transfers open to everyone you should be able to find a group that works well for you.
@Lawman:
The emblem system you described is no longer in the game. Current emblems do NOT let "non raiders" get equivalent gear to raiders.
@Andra:
Even if they made "heroic" versions of these raids, the difficulty would not be the same. It goes far beyond simple tuning up HP and damage output and changing loot drops. It goes into encounter design.
A lot of those early encounters, while difficult for their time, are not all that varying by today's WoW raiding standards. Each boss had maybe 1 or 2 abilities that did things. Current encounters are significantly more complicated.
While Ragnaros was a difficult fight, Sartharion is orders of magnitudes more "difficult" even for skill level. Dealing with Sons of Flame in Ragnaros is a lot like dealing with the Fire Elementals in Sartharion--minus the flame walls, minus the fact that each one gets more powerful if they hit a flame wall, minus the constant movement.
In Ragnaros you moved every 1.5 minutes or so. On Sartharion you move so much more often.
Toss in 1 or 2 drakes and you already have an encounter that requires more player skill.
You're really not missing much, and Blizzard's time can best be spent moving forward with new stories, new lore, new bosses, fresh bosses, and more awesome encounters.
@Mike
I do have the time/desire to raid. For me, it's a problem of finding a group that works well enough to progress instead wipe to the n-th degree. I still stand by my statements.
usualy their is only one morron who pitches the ides for herioc diffcullty for the originals but than more of you idiots pulled your heads in to your butt "how is the view down their allot of grap? or is that just coming out of your mouth" i kneed to say somthing cause blizz might axauly consider this and they ddont kneed help screwing this patch up i think it is the dumbest idea ever you dont feel chalanged? by the originals great go run maly he will go all the chalange you want and more try kill sartheion with three drakes up try for the immortal achievement if you done all the raids you will should have no problem doing it work on you're profession work on your reputation work on the quest achievement or do you want a herioc dificulty for quest to it wont be to hard to implent and it will give you a chalange explore the world of warcraft if you allready done all of that start another tune work on an alt as for the original instances its all up to you if you dont feel chalanged think its a waste of time why run them no one forsing you if you wanto run it then the achievement should be enough reward for you bagers cant be choosers as far as i know their are 8 original raids upper and lower black rock spire molted core and another one in blackrock mountains AQ20 AQ40 onixia lair all you haveto do is beat these once taht is it you never haveto comeback you want do somthing cool? allie horde and aliance finaly take one fraction at a time or break away the undead from teh horde they could be their own nation or do both teh well known PVP will just become friendly competion instead trying to pul guts out
I have met players who were proud of clearing spider wing and noth, two months after the raid group hit 80.
now I know them and though they may not be good they keep at it and they do improve!
the thing that the old Badges system did was open up more content to players in similar positions to them.
Of corse it is unbalenced and these players have a massive advantage when attacking lower level content, but its kinda odd for a sytem desighned to open raiding to the masses should have inherent qualities to prevent lower level players gaining an advantage through dedication!
I LOVE THE BADGE SYSTEM though i do think its good idea to decrease teh cost any way you swing it getting gear is going to be farming effort weather your getting achievement emblems or gear you are gointo have to return to the place again and again unless your extremly lucky this why you should you should not rush atake your time to injoy the contentsso you done run out of it
dont*
Alayea, he meant if you have troubles pugging, find a guild.
@Nebyula
Here's the deal. I'm already in a guild and I'm probably the most geared in it, with the exception of one other guild member. I know, it's not saying much when one's guild hasn't really taken a crack at the 5-man heroics. But I like the people even though they haven't progressed as quickly as I have (to be fair, most of them have family to take care of). So it's something of a toss-up for me: find another guild where I might feel lonely (but get more raiding in), or stay and feel important (but be stuck in status quo)? It's something I'm still struggling to answer.
@cocopuff
For God's sake
L2 Spell and Grammar
@Alayea
I know exactly what you're going through because the same thing is happening to me (except I'm the guild master). My advice is to stay in the guild and see where it goes; when/if they start raiding, you will probably have a guaranteed spot, and if people start leaving by the loads then it's a signal to you that it's your time.
Good luck to all the other guilds out there who are still having trouble getting started with raids!
Grammar are important
not writing a term paper here but if u can not read here "usaully" "moron" "idea" "difficulty" "crap" "actually"
"challenged" "do not" "quest"