Project Lore

yesb it iss me and IM JST mad cuz ic ant play vid game 4 funz lyke u guyz can bcuz i hab no lyfe n get adDDicted to trivial (sp?) tings like a D-BAG!!! SOPT HAVNG FUNZ W/OUT ME GUYZ!!!!!!2@2

I would never and have never pugged Naxx, Os or malygos, but I do pug VoA 10x/25x and its just the most awful thing ever. After 5 failed attempts at trying to capture wintergrasp because people can't grasp the concept of teamwork and attacking the same part on the walls, the first pull of the trash you're guaranteed at least 5 ranged will die just because of blatant stupidity, what I don't understand is if you're that desperate to get in to a raid that you have to pug when why not spend 5 minutes reading up about it?

I believe it's that more people have more "xp" under their belts now a days, I mean back when WoW was really growing it was in the 8 millions in the 1.x days, two expansions later and its only up another 3 or 4 million meaning most of the low level characters are alts of people who have been around since 1.9 or before (reason I say 1.9 is because I started when AQ had just come out which was 1.9 and the box said over 6 million)

I know back in those days I had no clue how to do any class well, my tanking was horid, my healing not much better, and I didn't understand about spell rotations to maximize DPS... my first char it took months just to get through the 50-60 range due to poor gearing, poor specing, and poor rotations.

Yes its true the game is a lot easier then it was back then with most the real group quests eliminated because Blizz wanted to promote people who don't have friends still being able to play the higher levels without pure frustration of 1/2 the quests being group quests.

So to answer the question I think its a mix between people actually learning how to play and it being slightly easier.

As to Someoneyouhate's comment, yes there are still bad PuGs, horid even, but as a whole PuGs have gotten better... it used to be "oh god I have to PuG for x gear, that means I am going to end up being the main tank and main healer since these kids don't know how to do either"...

Back then getting a good PuG was like trying to hit a bull's eye blindfolded after drinking a 12 pack of beer and being spun around 10 times.

Now a days getting a good pug is like trying to hit anywhere in the dartboard blindfolded sober spun around only once, you have about 40-60% chance of actually hitting.

There is very little (if any) crowd control required in Wrath instances, and overall the game is just a lot easier than it used to be. There have been many little changes to make the playing experience simpler and more straight-forward, so the overall learning curve that a new player experiences is shortened by a great deal.

I started playing somewhere near the end of BC's life cycle, I'm still learning. I will join almost any PUG and is usually goes alright, but when I build one it sucks. I don't know why but hey. My guild are al RL buddies, but I'm deployed so the time diff makes it damn near impossible to play together, but when I was home most of us were all in the same room, way better than Vent. Any I guess I'm just rambling.

@I'm Cool, I've climbed real mountains, been to counrties all over the world. I do way more than play WoW but I have to say it is the best game ever, behind FF VII.

Well the best example I can give is what's happened to me in the last few weeks.

I've recently joined a PUG group, no, we're not a raiding guild, we're just a group of people who aren't in raiding guilds who want to do raids, and don't mind picking up the odd random person along the way.

We've cleared naxx 10 and 25, OS 10 and 25, VoA 10 and 25, and yes...we've done the impossible - we've downed Malygos in a pug!

So I believe pugs are getting better, after all - nobody really pugged beyond Kara in BC.

@ Someoneyouhate

Get a life mate...

Players are not getting better, the game is just A LOT easier to play. The moment I hit 80 I stormed heroics in quest blues/lvl 70 epics and was bored instantly - there's virtually no difference anymore between tanks (anyone remember the time when only pallys and to some extent druids were able to properly AoE-tank, when having a warrior tank meant that unless some form of CC was available you were almost certain to fail ?), our healers rolled with 1.6k+ spell power the moment they hit 80 (remember the time when spell power was differentiated between healing and damage dealing spells ?), if ever the need arises to use some form of CC I can do pretty much everything short of volley-ing without fear of breaking the CC and causing a wipe.

Strategy ? Coordination ? Planning ? These all belong to the past now. Everything is just a glorified DPS race nowadays. Apparently the ability to use your brain is not something Blizz believes to be a prerequisite to playing this game.

I PUG Culling of strat timed on a daily basis and the groups handle it fine

There are a lot of things that have improved PuGs, most of which are from Blizz. Personally, I think the Armory is one of the biggest swings. Before, you had no idea what kind of player you were getting when you put together a PuG. Now, you can check out their spec, see what their stats are like, check their achievements to see what kind of experience they have, etc.

Plus, people know they're probably going to get checked on Armory, so they're more likely to either stay out of LFG until they gear up.

The other thing Blizz is brilliant at is dungeon design. The WotLK dungeons are far more accessible and entertaining for PuGs than previous installments. They're all relatively easy to get to, none of them take all that long to complete, and with the whole "bring the player, not the class" mentality, you rarely have occasions where you have to drop a group because you just don't have the right setup for a boss, etc.

There's no reason why a smart group of people couldn't pug anything in game. My guild has a core group of 80's, but most of us aren't on at the same time so except for 5 man heroics guild raid runs are pretty much out of the picture. I've joined quite a few groups for naxx 10 and so far my only OS 25 pug I've been in was very successful (got my 7.5 gloves out of it too). I think it's ridiculous when people refuse to run pugs because they don't trust other players outside of their guild. Ever think that they probably are thinking the same thing about you? You could suck for all they know until you join up, and realize both parties are actually quite competent.

Give people a chance, seriously... If they end up sucking then don't run with that specific person/group. That doesn't make all pugs terrible.

I would definitely say that the first four weeks after Wrath dropped were the best for PuGs, people knew their classes, and many bosses were dropped (first run on heroic HoL we managed to get the 2 minute Loken achievement). Now those initial 80s have progressed and are probably done raiding naxx and are waiting for the next level of raids, so the quality has dropped a bit (not too much yet).

I will remember fondly the days before I found out that HoL was hard.

@ Someoneyouhate

Stop being a douchebag - the only reason pugs ever fail is because of people like you with whiny condescending attitudes. As far as Naxx is concerned, the raid leader should be clearly explaining the boss fights before hand anyways so everyone is prepared. If you don't want to do this then make sure people know the fights before inviting them into your pug. Being a geared player doesn't give anyone the right to be a total douche.

Some pugs are still as bad as ever but i have more slightly more patience. I pugged a OS 25 and it was terrible. The WORST raid/instance experience ever. Half of the people wiped on the first fire wall. After wiping about 3 times cos people kept getting in teh walls i asked how many people had actually done this before. everyone said that they had but i checked a few their achievements out and half of them didn;t even have the 10 man acheivement. I don't care that you're new to raiding as long as you listen and at least try to do it right. Someone ever had the guts to moan that the healers weren't healing them enough through the fire. As soon as that happened i left the group. Two hours later i hear them yelling in trade for more people to join them. That's a bad pug.

@I'm cool and Someoneyouhate, I know your the same person as I can see your IP and email. So I'm asking you politely to please stop your spamming foul things on this thread. I've had to remove 3 of your posts. Thank you.

One word, DBM boss mods have come a long way imo

there are alot of thing...
1.with DBM it pretty easy to get the hang of any fight..
2. there is always some one in a pug who knows every fight and can explain
3. most people have watch videos so they know the boss..
4. we are still pretty early in on WOLK so alot of the noobs haven't reached 80 yet... when 3.1 comes out expect the return of crappy Naxx pugs

I mostly Pug because my guild is not big enough to support constant runs, but I have found running running instances more fun in WoTLK because they are shorter and there is more information out there like this site to help you learn about your class.

I remember BRD used to take 4+ hours to complete and if you did not do many short instances to practice tanking, you would get the Noob title. Now I can level with my tanking spec and do short instances to practice my skills.

I've PUGed 25man OS meny time and it quite ezy. Instance I still come along some bad PUG

off topic but I'm the GM of a raiding guild without vent and we run every 25 man raid each week

we rarely have a wipe

My attitude is only a result of terrible experiances with PUGs. PUGS are a result of people who either

A. Don't have a guild or is in a guild that talk about how everyone who plays this game is a nerd and those losers in their epics need a life.

B. Don't play to often

or

C. Are bored and just want to do somethin

My point is PuG'ing is always dangerous. It's hit or miss...and Garg said it, the game is alot easier. No need for CC, timing etc. Just smash your face on that keyboard. Full epics here I come.

@Valaar

I'm not , "I'm cool".

And I've posted once. So you could not have removed 3 posts.

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (PUGs)

The Good: Cleared a heroic in record time. No chat what-so-ever, everyone knew what they were doing, all loot rolls appropriate for class, everyone departs as friends.

The Bad: Wiped multiple times in a heroic. We choose to wait 20m for a healer to finally show who proceeds to tell the PUG that this is their first heroic, and then proceeds to tell everyone how to fight, as they fail to heal the group properly because they are under geared.

The Ugly: In the middle of a heroic and the tank (who is the leader) proclaims "Will be AFK for 8m, going to have soup." I kid you not. Immediately put on ignore after we finished.

Bottom line: PUGs are luck of the draw, but my personal experience is that they seem to be gradually getting better.

On the contrary to the original story, PUGs are worse now than when WoTLK came out. I am on Fenris server and when the hard core raiders started to get to lvl 80, the PUGs where great. You had players who knew how to play their class, were paying attention, and could focus. Now all the hard core raiders have moved out of heroics and their guilds are running their main 10/25 instances as well as the alt 10/25. The players who are new and do not have a raiding spot are running PUGs and they are absolutely worse than ever. They try and run 25 man raids while still in greens and blues and bring 800-1200 dps with them. I have an alt priest that I leveled up outside of the guild to get the mains all the opportunity they needed to gear up. I researched and ran all the heroics I needed and got all the rep gear as well. Luckily now I am done and I have a spot in alt raids, so I don't have to deal with those issues anymore

PUGs...I've always been a big fan of them. All thru leveling in pre-BC, I meant several of my closest WoW friends thru pugs. A few have even become close friends in RL. Yes, there were wipes and aggravation, but in all honesty PUGs helped me to become a much better player. Yes I read all the strats and how to really know my class, etc...but PUGs helped me to test out my stats/build, test my skills, and helped bring my game to the next level. Leveling my paladin (my first character), it gave me a better idea on judging when I need to back off on smashing things (ret) and help the healer with a few quick heals here and there or throwing a cleanse, etc.

PUGs also gives me the chance to really see what kind of players are out there, who knows their class, who knows the gear, etc. When my old guild needed to recruit healers, my pally tank was the first to offer services to run heroics/Kara to see how well a potential healer did.

I'll never forget the time when I saw a hunter with some very questionable gear (he had gear with defense on it, a few pieces). during the instance, he got slammed by some of the 'elite' players in the group about him being a nub and whatnot. After the instance, I asked him a few questions about how long he played and all that, gave him a few pointers about his spec (he didnt even know what spec meant), and told him to ask me anything anytime and I'll try to help him out. Over the course of the next few months, he asked several questions and I helped him as much as I could...now, after 2 expansions, he is a well to-do player geared in T7 and doing awesome, and after being gone so long...I ask him questions while I level my alt hunter from 70 to 80.

It just goes to show, that PUGs while it may be a headache for some, it can give opportunity to others to learn more and grow in their class, thus get more out of the game and have more fun.