Project Lore

I think most ppl have missed his point. He was annoyed that upon winning a greed roll on a green/blue that was going to be vendored he would DE for his own use.
After the group saw him DE they wanted to roll on the shard well... that's just greed and not right.
I just DE stuff after the instance to avoid this.

It's like others have said....the chanters DE the loot cos the shards are worth more than vendoring the loot. If the chanter doesn't want to share the DE skill, they don't need to but then they can't expect the whole party to pass the loot to them for free shards.

I will never forget the first time I had this explained to me in a PUG by the chanter. Made a ton of sense to me so I figured it was the thing to do. I have always asked if we're gonna roll on loot or if we have a chanter who wants to DE it. If you don't want to DE it, don't volunteer to. But come on...is it really that big of a deal to you? I am a prot warrior/engineer. I can make Mammoth Cutters, which I use for pulling mobs despite the fact ANY ammo would do the job. I will always ask gun hunters I group with what ammo they use and if they'd rather use Mammoth Cutters. The response is typically that they'd love to, their damage goes up, we kill mbos faster and finish the instance faster. In some cases, I've ended up with permanent clients buying Mammoth Cutters from me.

When we're in an instance...aren't we part of a team, anyway?

The point is that in PUG's the other people apart from the enchanter are giving up a roll on an item (yes they are probably gonna sell it anyway, but it is still wow money), so if the enchanter is gonna keep all the shards then why are they not gonna roll on it ?

It is totally different to mining ore etc because if the miner was not there then nobody would get anything. If the enchanter is not there then u get a roll on a blue/epic that u can then sell for cash.

The reason sharding is treated differently is that everyone else has a chance to roll on the item for profit at a vendor. If the group as a whole decides on DEing the item and rolling for shards instead of individually rolling for a quick bit of gold then it stands to reason they should have a chance on the DEed item instead of the original that was presented. If everyone rolled greed on the item and you won it, then whatever you get from DE or vendor is yours to keep. QQing that everyone passed on an item for you to DE then they win the shards is lame. Talk tot he group and explain you want first dibs at the shard it is fair. Instead of gold for echants discount for shards and learn how to deal around whatever you see as shortcommings to your profession.

Comparing disenchanting an item to skinning/herbalism/mining is fundamentally unsound. If you're in a group with no skinner, all skinnable mobs are left on the ground... there's no way to get to the skin. Same goes with mining and herbalism... nodes are left unstruck and flowers left unpicked without someone requiring the talents to do so. As far as sharding boss loot is concerned... if you don't have someone that can DE, someone will still get the loot to vendor. By saying "I'm the one doing the disenchanting, I deserve the shard" is like saying "I'm an enchanter, thus the rest of you should miss out on the gold you could get by vendoring this item." To put it another way... if you've gotten to the point where you are taking no loot from heroic dungeons, your choices are A) run them for emblems, rep, stone keepers shard (where applicable), and some extra coin or B) run with an enchanter, get emblems, rep, SKSs and help the enchanter get mats. If it's a guild run or you're feeling especially generous, maybe you pick B. If not... A is clearly preferred. Non-skinners don't expect to get skins, because they never do, the same way non-miners never get ore and non-herbalists never get herbs... you pass up skinnables, nodes, and herbs everyday without another thought. But when you kill a boss, you should be entitled to a fair shot at the loot (provided it's not an upgrade for the other guy) even if you're just going to use it for some quick cash. If you have an enchanter that is willing to really boost the worth of those items for the whole party... awesome.

All that being said, if you're an enchanter, you're providing a service and should be paid accordingly. A good rule of thumb I use is "the shard from the first DE'd boss loot is the enchanter's to keep, and the enchanter can roll at the end just like everyone else" (that assumes you wait until the end to divy out shards, which, in my mind, is the most fair way to do it.)

I get the feeling from your rant that you're getting into groups that say, "Hey, does anyone DE? Awesome, it's your job to DE everything and get no compensation for the time and effort you've spent working up your Enchanting skill." If these are PUGs... well, that's probably just the way it's going to be. Don't run with PUGs. If this is happening in guild runs... talk to your GL about making a rule on shards. I bet the majority of the people doing this don't really stop and think about it, and would have no problem giving the enchanter his due dilligence.

I say that enchanters should get all the trash items (if there are no needs). I mean, what's the point in rolling for a green/blue item that you don't need? What do you do with it? Sell it? How greedy can you get? It's 5-10-15-20g. You get more money from the overall trash and bosses. At least the enchanters do something with it. In my group we use Group Loot for trash mobs because some say we lose time to /roll on trash items and when a green/blue item drops, the chat becomes full with greed rolls. We always say to the enchanters to roll need on it.

I have an enchanter and I say you are being a greedy bastard....

I'm an enchanter myself, and I must say that this is a great topic.
Miners/ Skinners and Herbers all say that if they wheren't there, then nobody would get the stuff out of nodes, plants ect. That is indeed true. However if the enchanter wasn't there, then the item couldn't be made into a shard.
Sure the item could be sold, but not for as much as a shard.
Say the item sells for 10g, however the shard it produce sells for 15g. That is 5g profit you get for the enchanters "work". So at least he should get the difference for it, or maybe even the right to buy the shard from the guy who wins it for THE VENDOR PRICE of the item DE'ed. That way the enchanter at least gets something for his work.
However I'd say it would be easier to roll for the item in question, and then if the enchanter wins, he can DE it and keep the shard.

Tons of comments, some well said.
Lets say I'm a rogue and opening the locked box in the instance. Should I keep all the loot with greens and everything? It costs me nothing to open the box and if I weren't there you most probably would get nothing out of it. Lets say I kind enough to open the chest to get a chance on some additional loot and you'll be kind enough to disenchant the blue I win by greeding. (but since noone can trade BoP items, the group wants you to DE the stuff and then roll on the non-BoP thingy)

I say if its a PuG then it needs to be determined before the first blue drop as to wiether the blue
1)everyone rolls for the gear if no one needs to ware and if enchanter gets great they get the gear and in turn the shard and if someone else wins then they are stuck with vendor junk
2) enchanter gets and everyone rolls for shard
3) enchanter gets and keeps shard
...

In a pug I feel it should be 1 or 3 and not 2, because well the PuG didn't help you get your enchanting to where you can turn that 2G vendor crap into something a lot more valuable... but in the same time if they really want vendor crap you couldn't have gotten that blue to drop without the healer/tank/etc and so if they want to roll for the gear and not the shard thats fesiable as well the basic difference is that if they win they get x gold and if you win you get either mats or larger then x gold. The argument there is that though they didn't help you raise your enchanting to be able to DE it, at the same time should a Pali not be able to get any money from an instance that doesn't drop plate just becasue he didn't go enchanting... Point is in a PuG there is points for both sides to this, yet neither side does anyone roll for the shard, its a choose between give the enchanter their mats or roll on the gear and if non enchanter wins then they get less money then the enchanter would have yet still some.

As for grouping with friends, no the enchanter should ALWAYS get the useless items to DE and should keep the DE mats. I mean if your friends more then likely you'll use some mats you get through all your runs to help enchant the friend to make the runs easier anyways since till your fully geared and enchanted it shouldn't be whats best for you or best money wise but rather whats best for the group.

To summarize, if its a real group and not a PuG it should always be "need before greed" in the fact of the enchanter NEEDS the mats to raise his enchanting to learn the good enchants to latter enchant onto every ones gear. And in a PuG if its a great PuG (yeah right) then it would be fair to deside to roll on the shards, but if its only an average PuG then the enchanter should get to keep the shards if they get the gear wiether they get it by defualt or get the gear by rolling for it since PuGs aren't whats best for the group but rather best for individual since you don't play with them nightly...

And noobalicious, you judge without even knowing the full content of what he is saying, you don't know if he means a nightly group, or a good PuG, or a crapy PuG, your calling him selfish without even knowing what about... if its when the blue drops "oh if you don't need I can DE" and then takes the shard without figuring out what happens first then yes, but if its not a PuG or if explain before hand then no.

I think where looking the wrong way here. Instead of u keeping ur shard, all instance drops should be rolled for. If I run an instance as dps (ret pally) like H VH the skinners make out big time. There is usually 1 Arctic fur and tons of leather. these stacks of leather should also be rolled for

Ok, I havent read all the comments to this point because well, i think there are over 100. Anywhoo I have a simple solution to this problem.

Everone Greed on Items Not Wanted By Anyone

Winner Can Then Ask An Enchanter to DE, Preferably One In the Group

If it Is BoP Then Everyone Pass, Roll Outside Game System Winner Can Ask Enchanter to DE

Simple, and fair

Maybe this is a silly idea, but it is one I will start to try doing.

If you are and enchanter, use Autioneer or some other AH addon. Get a good history built up, so you know current item values.

When in an instance, offer your skills to DE. Point out that you know what the vendor price of the item is, and you know what the AH value of the mats are. When DEing an item, state the vendor cost is $X. Furthermore, state that you will give the winner of the roll $X+. DE the item and give the winner of the roll enough shards to cover the original vendor cost plus. Tell the winner how much they can AH the items for. Added value.

Or you can be sneaky. Unless I'm missing something about what others see with the DE process... the other pug members don't know what the item DE'd to. Soooo..... just split the stack and take a shard before giving the mats to the winner of the roll.

Not that I bother with such stuff these days. I rarely pug these days, preferring to run with my guildies.

Marchell, lvl 75 holy priest, Echo Isles.

Or maybe this. With the Autioneer addon, you should be able to get the vendor prices for items. Offer to pay the winner of the roll vender price + nice fat tip for you to get the item to DE. Win-win, they get more G that if they vendored it, you get the mats to further you profession.

If the pug bitches that YOU should DE and allow the group to roll on the mats, object. If they say no, apologize and bail on the group. They have no right to earn way above and beyond vender/AH gold off of your hard-earned professional back.

I know what you mean Bastosa, however from another persons perspective.

You are doing the instance with other people which give you access to all these lovely blues to de. I need enchants too and any mats I can get my hands on are going to save me gold.

I was happy for the enchanter taking blues etc especially when I was grinding instances while leveling, however at 80 you can't demand stuff to de. As someone mentioned above if you take that attitude into pugs etc they will just need/greed on the stuff to vendor.

As a tank even if the group does not wipe I have a durability loss to pay for, should I get the group to give me some gold to cover this? no. So the same goes for de'd stuff.

this it totally true i hate losing shards

Every crafting profession can be a pain to level, Enchanting and Blacksmithing probably the worst ones.
The problem I have with this, is the comment that Enchanters need to roll on these shards in order to level up. You sure this is the only way?
My enchanter has Tailoring. Best combination for Enchanting. Make the blues to lvl Tailoring, D/E them for Enchanting mats.
So maybe you dont have Tailoring? Find a friend who does perhaps? Then you CAN grind mats, just like everyone else, send them to him/her to craft.
You may not enjoy grinding mats for epics, but you can not possibly expect people to be ok with you needing epic shards in instances. And by the time your actually using epic shards, shouldn't your Enchanting be high enough to simply expect people to supply all the mats for their enches?
I very rarely pug HC's. All the greens I win go to D/E and the mats go in the GuildBank. Same for the BOE blues and any shards I win. Because of this I've helped to lvl up fellow guildies Enchanting, and I do not have worry about paying for any enchants.
So in my honest opinion, if an enchanter wants mats to serve only himself, then no, no shinies for you. If its for the good of the guild, absolutely. Same goes for all mats obtained from instances and raids, be it leather/herbs/shines.
If your PUG'ing, then I feel very sorry for you and perhaps you ought to shake your guild around, till they save you :]

Seems to me like you are trying to double dip a bit. You want everyone to pass to you so you have mats for your trade skill that you charge people for and expect them to have the mats that you take in the first place... Might as well just put the mats on the Auction House for an insane price while you're at it so the people who got you the mats in the first place get to pay you for the mats and then pay you for the service too. Bravo for ultimate greediness.

Only way this is fair is if it is won by a greed roll on the drop. Otherwise perhaps you should consider compensating the rest of the group for the mat that you require to level your skill.

Nobody ever said you HAVE to shard the drops let alone tell anyone you are an enchanter in the first place.

I dont think its greedy at all and I think enchanters should get to keep the shards, or people should roll for the ores/leathers aswell.

The argument that you are double dipping isnt valid imo.
The same can be said about skinning/mining. You get to keep the mats, and you put them on the AH where others buy them when they want crafts made.

The thing with enchanting is that people expect to get the service for free, meaning that almost everybody starts complaining when you ask a fee for a rare enchant. When a BS or JC does it it is totally acceptable, but when a enchanter does it most people start whining. This is caused by the people that level up enchanting by doing enchants for free, i realize that. My point is that the only way to make profit from enchanting (unless you have mongoose) is by selling shards/dusts.

Since it apparently is considered fair for everyone to roll on the shards, most mats you buy wont be from enchanters, so there goes your double dipping theory. This also causes to overflood the AH with underpriced mats, wich makes enchating an even worse money-maker.

Then there is the argument that Blues/epics can be sold to a vendor, and nodes/skins have no value when there isnt a miner/skinner in the group. Fair enough, but then it would be totally fair for the enchanter to ask a fee for disenchanting the items, wich i guarantee you will lead to alot of crying, especially in PuG's.

My solution? I dont tell the group i'm an enchanter (most dont bother to check for ring enchants anyway), or i refuse to do it. I will just greed roll on an item like everyone else, and De it for myself.

preach!

I personally think that it is a little unfair to the enchanter that the shards get rolled on. I understand that the whole group fought to get the item that was DE'ed, but what if the Enchanter only went to the instance for the shards-not for anything else. If everyone rolled on the shards, theres a chance the Enchanter will get nothing. I think that the Enchanter should get at the very least one of the shards. But this is my opinion, doesn't mean much.

I'm lucky enough not to have that problem. I'm the only high-level enchanter in my small (13-18-man) guild, so I get all the unwanted gear passed to me, so I can enchant their gear without having to attach a pricetag for my spent time and effort.

-T/K

The reason you don't get exclusive rights to the shard is that every member has some equity on the value of the item that drops. You can choose not to disenchant it but it must go through a greed roll process regardless.

The only difference you make is that you (potentially) increase the value of the item by disenchanting it. For that you can charge a fee if you are a douchebag, I suppose.

98 comments so far. Think we'll best the "I Don't Care About Your Ding" entry? :lol:

Anyway, I don't think there'll be a resolution of the DE roll issue short of Blizzard overhauling the enchanting profession. Best approach a player can take is to set the rules before doing an instance/raid.

Simple solution. You've got a douche bag DE'er in your group, everyone rolls greed to vendor the item. That way he/she doesn't have to waste their precious DE time. Maybe there is an accidental misdirect on the next boss, who knows, funny how those things happen.

I guess I would feel more sympathy if there was a node of shards and we (the rest of the group) felt entitled to them, but that's not the case.

You can help the whole group and have a really good chance to get 1st shard just for being a team player or you can roll for the gear just like everyone else. Maybe just shut up about being an enchanter if you don't want to have to share.