Sarth 3D: Progression or Pride?
Bastosa on Thursday, March 5, 2009 - 35 Comments Tags: Mount, achievement, drakes, obsidian sanctum, progression, raiding, sarth 3d, sartharion, title, twilight vanquisher 
In all my time raiding in WoW I have not seen an issue quite as polarizing as the Sartharion Encounter in The Obsidian Sanctum with all three drakes left alive (commonly called Sarth 3D.) This has been especially true in my guild lately as it is the last major hurtle we still have to overcome.
This encounter is commonly regarded as the most challenging fight in the current end game, and is something only a handful of guilds have accomplished. The incentive for winning this encounter is an achievement, an awesome title, and a rare mount that will only drop in this encounter. For me, there is also the sense that you have beat the hardest fight in the end game, but for many that is not enough.
See, there has been a lot of debate in my guild if this is something worth striving for. The guild has been split sharply into two separate camps. One camp, the camp I am a member of says: yes, this is important. My reasoning is simple. It is progression, it is the only fight we have yet to win, and I want to win it!
The second camp says: no, its is not worth all the time and resources we put into it. They say it is not progression, as it does not add any usable gear to the loot table, there are no new bosses behind him, and downing him will not help us at all in Ulduar. Essentially they see it as an achievement and nothing more.
While I am full aware that the 3 drake loot table adds no gear over the 2 drake loot table, I am going to have to express my opinion against camp 2. For me, raiding has never been about the loot. I’ve downed hundreds of bosses without the benefit of receiving loot personally. I play the game to overcome challenges. More importantly overcome challenges with my friends and guildmates. That’s why I play the game, to do something fun and challenging! This is the last challenge left for our guild.
Now I am aware that people have different priorities in this game. Some like raiding more than others. I for one love raiding and am not bothered by wiping for hours on end, as long as it is a means to an end. Some people clearly are bothered by it, it can be frustrating, and more importantly expensive (repair bills aren’t cheap!).
While we continue to grind away, and I am hopeful we are close, there is an undercurrent of internal conflict on every pull. For me it seems that Sarth 3D is something you have the motivation for or you don’t. My guild is unfortunately split on the issue. How about you guys? Is this a worthy goal, a waste of resources, or something you got out of the way a long time ago?
Reader Comments (35)
i have to say that for me loot has never been my number one issue. I like the challenge of a new boss, or new raid to try and beat as well. Loot generally is something we just naturally pick up as you progress in raids. (definitely a nice reward for downing the said bosses imo). Anywho, Sarth 3D to our guild is a challenge we're looking to overcome together.
oh and first :)
First?
also, Sarth + 3D is definately something worth striving for imo, who cares about the gear, honestly?
ya i understand where you are coming from the progression from the boss can be seen in different sides. I am on your side of this i'd like the feeling that i downed all the things in your way.
Im like you bast me and my guild are at the point where Sarth 3D is the only thing left in the game we have done sarth2D and have spent nights wipeing on sarth 3D yes the repairs are high but thats why we grind and i cnt wait for the glory at the end of the road and to ware my title with pride knowing i have done something that few have done and, knowing when gained this title all 25 people in the raid were working as 1 unit and even that is something im happy to be appart of,
Well, it's something I don't have to be concerned about. Me finding a pug for Sarth 3D? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. :lol:
Can't do it with my guild either because nearly all of them aren't even geared for Naxx 10, so... *shrug*
I think the people who believe that it isn't "progression" are probably the same people who, when BC was new, decided they'd jump right into 25-man content before doing Kara. Would anyone else think they could do HK Mulgore before doing Opera-Chrone? These things test guilds/groups to make them prove they have the ability to progress. The single fact that there is no extra loot for Sarth 3D isn't the reason why guilds grind out this event. They do it to further themselves in an effort to be ready for Ulduar, and the numerous "Hard Modes" implemented there. Do it Bast, let 'em know!!
Sarth + 3D isn't hard, with all the changes brought about, but it does require knowing when to wipe and when not to...
when sadron and vesperon are up, people will die.... pressing on and keeping at it, will be the only surefire way to kill it...
we dont usually have everyone in the raid up when we down sarth.... but it does help
also your self saves are the most important part of the hectic phase in the 3drake encounter...
3drake is about pride and really testing your raids ability to move and think on there feet.....
dare i say its required to really press forward in content enjoying the newer "Hard" Modes...
My guild is split on it - though we're trying to get through 25 man naxx before Ulduar hits (Thaddius and Razuvious still give us major headaches). Atm we get 1 drake down on 10 and don't even try on 25. It's just more important to get whatever we can down in Naxx. Since we're a more casual guild progression is far less stable for us (people sit out often enough that gearing up is difficult, especially with the way drops sometimes just don't work out)
I don't really understand why normally people that have say a 50/50 chance of winning something in like a WoW raid will typically not try (even like a 65/35) only because of the possible repair bill and drama....I understand as far as the drama...but I have to ask, why the drama?
We play a game and your telling me you only want to play if we win? or have a very good chance of doing so? That I just don't understand....I guess if it was hopeless but that is usually not the case.
I guess my point is, WoW is a game, why not play it like one? Not a job, not an annoyance, bla bla bla. Play it if you want to, and don't bother people who just want to have fun.
This divison in camps in your guilde reminds me of those who before acheivements raided for the stuff and those who raided for acheiving a goal, and trying difficult things.
Personnaly to manage such a fight in my opinion is a great preperation in its difficulty to ulduar, but that is a question of opinion I think
I hate repeating content ten thousand times, anything with a special twist is what I'll will strive for =)
I did 25 man Sarth with no drakes up as a pug only once so far, and besides that have only cleared half of naxx (this is mostly because of time restraints, not gear restraints). I'd love to say I've cleared Sarth with all 3 drakes up but in a pug format that probably will not happen. I think the guilds who are so close to completing it should definitely go for it, because not only does it give you a sense of accomplishment, it really shows how well a group is coordinated.
actually doing Sarth D with 25 is so much easier then with 10, just look at the numbers. The real challange is really the 10m encounter where every1 has to be on the tip of their toes, not allowing anyone to die because then you'd lack the DPS or the tanks to do it. It's really all in the setup, altho I've never done it yet my guess it makes it easier to have each of the drakes tanked by a feral druid, so that they can switch to dps once their target is dead. Feral druids make massive damage in bearform, more then any other tank with equal gear would and by switching to cat they make evne more so it would make sence to do it like that
It is progression?
It might not be progression as far as loot and such go, but your guild are moving up the difficulties.
It's like, err, playing Guitar Hero 1, getting hard mode done, and not trying your hand at expert.
Then Guitar Hero 2 (ulduar) comes out and you all jump back to medium.
Whereas it should be GH1 expert, then maybe GH2 hard then GH2 expert.
You don't get to the top to go back down to the bottom and you don't get half way up the difficulties and move on.
It's just...weird.
Sarth 3D is progression and it is real test of your raid. It sounds to me like the people who don't want to do it for reasons like time and resources don't have the commitment to raid. progression raiding takes wipes, it takes flasks, and it takes time.
Let's be honest with ourselves; the current raids are easy, too easy. The new endgame progression are the achievements: 3D, 6minute Maly, Immortal, etc. Those are the real tests of your raid.
Finally, like Barduck said a few posts up, 10m 3D is many times harder than 25 3D.
I hope you can win over the lazy half of your guild Bastosa, good luck.
Tona
3D prot pally :]
No new loot? It gives a sweet drake mount! That's good enough loot for me!
Overall, I don't raid for loot though. I raid because it's fun. I like to kill bosses, I like to beat challenges. Loot is a great bonus, but it's not the reason I'm there. Loot is only good for more raiding. If you don't like the raiding in the first place, what do you need the loot for?
To me, the new achievements in raids is the new end-game - in TBC, killing all the bosses was the end-game, now Blizzard have added the extra hard-mode achievements, so its not just about killing the boss, its also about trying for the 6 minute Malygos kill, the Sartharion 3D, The Immortal, Glory of the Raider etc. It bring a nice new twist to the game.
We have people in my guild with a similar attitude as me and others who are still stuck in TBC mode, and think killing the boss is all that matters. But, we are working on getting everyone singing the same tune, and working on Sartharion 3D Heroic now!
imo, just go kill him :) unlike some other ppl said, it was really nice to see him drop dead after a whole lot of wiping.
And the next reset, we 1-shotted him :)
For me, its all about the $$. If im dropping 100g on repairs for one day's worth of attempts. That makes it not worth it for me.
It depends on the raiding guild. If I was a (co)leader of a raiding guild and people began to moan about repair bills it would be a case of "do more dailys to cover your costs or gtfo". If it's a casual guild then wiping sarth 3d can be tedious however if it's a serious raiding guild and people are geared for it then there's no excuse for not doing it.
Those kind of decisions are why I stopped raiding. I'm a hardcore raider at heart, but with a casual playing time.
During vanilla WoW, I was in a hardcore raiding guild. We were done with BWL just before the release of AQ. But then, a new job with different schedules mean that it was getting harder and harder for me to go the raids. I would come home from work and immediately sit in front of my computer to play, eating while playing. My wife did not mind too much since she was in the same raid, but after about two months like this, we stopped it.
I came back to the game for BC, and I tried to find a casual raiding guild. To make a long story short, I quit after our first raid. We downed Attumen, did not try Moroes (he's too hard) and quit on Maiden after three wipes (75%, 40%, 8%) because there was no point spending so long on a boss without getting loot and we should go and try the Spider boss instead.
Since then, my play time is even shorter as we can only start playing around 9.30 pm after we have put our son to bed, later than the start of most raids on our server.
I'd love to still be in a guild that would see conquering hard-modes as a badge of honor to proudly wear. I can't join a guild where raiding is just the way to get more loot. And yet, I'm at a point where neither of those alternatives are open to me...
Damn, I just reread what I typed... If I saw such a post, I'd reply QQ MOAR... How well, I typed it, I might as well submit!
I dont c how they dont call it progres?...Sarth 3D is the perfect place to check if u got what it takes, since u got to pay attention to everything have good dps and knowing wth to do...my guild is trying 3D for couple of weeks now and we down 2D ez now...
and if u look at it from Ulduar point of view...If u raid to down 3D u can keep urself busy and only have the most deticated raiders when 3.1 hits :D + title is awesomeness itself
Bast take your camp and do 3D 10 man. I agree with the others who have opined that the 10 man is much harder anyway as the margin for error is sooooo much smaller, if not nonexistant. You just can't lose ANYONE in that fight and expect to win.
Be the ball, Danny. Be the ball.
the questionn is when uldur goes live and the achivment disapears, will you still want to achive Sarth 3D.
does have one boss alive claw away at the back of ur mind, if the answer is yes go for it, be all you can be!