Downsizing Dungeons
Posted by 
Amatera on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 29 Comments Tags: 10 man, 25 man, Drama, blizzard, game design, guilds, members, raiding
Amatera on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 29 Comments Tags: 10 man, 25 man, Drama, blizzard, game design, guilds, members, raiding
Blizzard's raiding model has seen its share of changes over the years. First, it was raids that catered to 10-man, 20-man, and even 40-man groups. Then, with Burning Crusade, a curious mix of 10s and the new 25-man raids. And now, with Wrath of the Lich King, dungeons that can accommodate runs 10 and 25 strong in tandem. Like so many other things in the game, the idea has been to make end-game content accessible to as many people as possible. But I think they're onto something else, something beyond the mere ability to PuG the toughest dungeons in the game.
You see, I think I've become addicted to 10-man raids. Forced into them due to low turnout from the membership, it's basically all our guild has been able to run lately. And you know what? I'm OK with that. I'm perfectly peachy. I've learned that the tighter, more intimate setup has led to a relatively stress-free experience.
I don't think I'm the only one, either. As my server's population plummets over the Summer (and I'm sure it must have on many of yours, as well), I've found that several notable raiding guilds have fully converted to lean, mean 10-man raiding machines.
It makes me think: would the whole game be better off this way?
The immediate results would be obvious. Less people to deal with means less fighting over gear, less drama, and less people to round up for the nightly raid. On the flip side, if the "drama dragon" rears its ugly head, the impact on a smaller guild could potentially be devastating. But I find that, out of all the people I've actually played this game with, I feel like I could trust oh, about, ten or fifteen of them, and that means that I can deal with the occasional outburst and tense situations between members can be more easily defused.
After all, the number one killer of WoW guilds isn't a raid boss, it's the "d-word." Urging guilds to operate on a more compact skill would be a long-term benefit for the health of the game, in my opinion, though that wouldn't help with cleaning up the messy business that would need to be carried out beforehand (I'm talking about trimming rosters and restructuring, which would no doubt leave many players homeless for awhile). The more people there are in a guild, the more they're going to feel devalued. When people feel devalued, they stir the pot to get noticed, and that's not good for anybody. It would be infinitely easier to understand what every person can bring to a raid when there are fewer bodies to consider.
Another thing to take into account would be difficulty. With the exception of several fights (like Grobbulus, where an exponential number of targets decreases the chance of any one person being afflicted by a poison cloud), most encounters are, indeed, harder in their 25-man versions. Currently, 10-mans seem to be tuned chiefly through tweaking of "soft" numbers (reducing the min-max damage of a boss' spell) or "hard" numbers (4 adds become 2, 2 adds become 1, etc.).
If 10-man raids were to suddenly become the standard, Blizzard would have to take a more careful approach tobuilding encounters. I feel as though they could create bosses with more interesting mechanics, or ones that at least require a lot more strategic planning. With ten people, you're forced to "do more with less," but when that number goes up, raiding becomes more about "how many people can you throw at the boss." If you ever went through one of the classic 40-man raids with a full group, you'd know how often players simply got lost in the shuffle. Not to mention the problems with gear distribution. It could take ages to win a single upgrade!
Besides, some of my best memories come from 10-mans. Countless runs through the atmospheric ruins of Karazhan or intense bear mount attempts (came as close as one minute) in Zul'Aman are among my favorite experiences in the game.
All of this may sound strange coming from me, someone who just recommended not too long ago that Blizzard super-size their battlegrounds. While that may work for a grand melee, I feel that smaller raids empower individual players and make the experience a whole lot more fun for everybody involved. After all, it just seems kind of weird to march into a "dungeon" with an entire army. Haven't you always wanted to be "that guy," the one who just saved the world from utter annihilation?
Making this sort of change, permanently scaling down the size of dungeons, would no doubt cause a temporary uproar in the community as guilds deal with shifting membership, but I honestly think it would help maintain the health of the game in the long-term.
What do you think, perusers of Project Lore? My opinions on game design have historically been controversial, focusing on streamlined, semi-linear experiences. Do you agree that 10-man raiding is a viable prospect for the future of the game, or is it always better to have more options, even if that means diluting certain parts of the game (i.e. forcing the designers to effectively double their workload when producing both 10 and 25-man versions)? The comment section is, as always, open. I leave the floor to you!
You see, I think I've become addicted to 10-man raids. Forced into them due to low turnout from the membership, it's basically all our guild has been able to run lately. And you know what? I'm OK with that. I'm perfectly peachy. I've learned that the tighter, more intimate setup has led to a relatively stress-free experience.
I don't think I'm the only one, either. As my server's population plummets over the Summer (and I'm sure it must have on many of yours, as well), I've found that several notable raiding guilds have fully converted to lean, mean 10-man raiding machines.
It makes me think: would the whole game be better off this way?
The immediate results would be obvious. Less people to deal with means less fighting over gear, less drama, and less people to round up for the nightly raid. On the flip side, if the "drama dragon" rears its ugly head, the impact on a smaller guild could potentially be devastating. But I find that, out of all the people I've actually played this game with, I feel like I could trust oh, about, ten or fifteen of them, and that means that I can deal with the occasional outburst and tense situations between members can be more easily defused.
After all, the number one killer of WoW guilds isn't a raid boss, it's the "d-word." Urging guilds to operate on a more compact skill would be a long-term benefit for the health of the game, in my opinion, though that wouldn't help with cleaning up the messy business that would need to be carried out beforehand (I'm talking about trimming rosters and restructuring, which would no doubt leave many players homeless for awhile). The more people there are in a guild, the more they're going to feel devalued. When people feel devalued, they stir the pot to get noticed, and that's not good for anybody. It would be infinitely easier to understand what every person can bring to a raid when there are fewer bodies to consider.
Another thing to take into account would be difficulty. With the exception of several fights (like Grobbulus, where an exponential number of targets decreases the chance of any one person being afflicted by a poison cloud), most encounters are, indeed, harder in their 25-man versions. Currently, 10-mans seem to be tuned chiefly through tweaking of "soft" numbers (reducing the min-max damage of a boss' spell) or "hard" numbers (4 adds become 2, 2 adds become 1, etc.).
If 10-man raids were to suddenly become the standard, Blizzard would have to take a more careful approach tobuilding encounters. I feel as though they could create bosses with more interesting mechanics, or ones that at least require a lot more strategic planning. With ten people, you're forced to "do more with less," but when that number goes up, raiding becomes more about "how many people can you throw at the boss." If you ever went through one of the classic 40-man raids with a full group, you'd know how often players simply got lost in the shuffle. Not to mention the problems with gear distribution. It could take ages to win a single upgrade!
Besides, some of my best memories come from 10-mans. Countless runs through the atmospheric ruins of Karazhan or intense bear mount attempts (came as close as one minute) in Zul'Aman are among my favorite experiences in the game.
All of this may sound strange coming from me, someone who just recommended not too long ago that Blizzard super-size their battlegrounds. While that may work for a grand melee, I feel that smaller raids empower individual players and make the experience a whole lot more fun for everybody involved. After all, it just seems kind of weird to march into a "dungeon" with an entire army. Haven't you always wanted to be "that guy," the one who just saved the world from utter annihilation?
Making this sort of change, permanently scaling down the size of dungeons, would no doubt cause a temporary uproar in the community as guilds deal with shifting membership, but I honestly think it would help maintain the health of the game in the long-term.
What do you think, perusers of Project Lore? My opinions on game design have historically been controversial, focusing on streamlined, semi-linear experiences. Do you agree that 10-man raiding is a viable prospect for the future of the game, or is it always better to have more options, even if that means diluting certain parts of the game (i.e. forcing the designers to effectively double their workload when producing both 10 and 25-man versions)? The comment section is, as always, open. I leave the floor to you!
Reader Comments (29)
I think it'd be a good idea to keep raids smaller. I've done 10 and 25 mans enough to figure that I prefer running with a tight knit group of friends rather than people I may not have played with before. You know who you can rely on, who REALLY needs what pieces of gear, and who would be able to handle certain roles in stressful fights.
If you play consistently with a large group, I'm sure 25 mans will be similar, but the connections are easier to make with a smaller group, especially people you may know IRL.
I don't know, I like the idea of the 10 Legendary Heroes, but killing an Old God with just 10 people just show the Old God isn't so Godly.
I'd love to see a bunch more focus on 10 man, they are more fun imho than 25's.
Yeah, I'm kinda with Shamtastik...if a mere 10 people can take out the Litch King, why was he so powerful again? I'm kinda curious on how they will actually justify not sending an entire army after him.
I personally think this is an excellent idea. Although, if they would do this, I would personally want them to make the fights more complicated.
Still, I think that the option to pick either 10 or 25 man encounters is an great compromise.
I think they got it right by having 10 and 25 man versions of each raid. The 10 man raids are good for players that like to raid but don't like the stress of having to deal with 24 other people while 25 man raids are for the more hardcore raiders out there. I really doupt that the Argent Crusade is going to sit on the sidelines while 10 people go into Icecrown Citadel. The Ebon Blade will really want to take out the Lick King for what he did to them. I think that when you fight Arthas finally you will be assisted by all the factions.
I like how it is. I can do 10mans with my friends as my guild only concentrate on 25 mans.
Plus there's more to do every reset, with every raid + their 10man versions.
I believe that they should continue producing 25 man versions of the 10 raids...I think that some of the more dedicated raiders still enjoy the 25 man and even the 40 man raids. My first run through BT was epic and I thoroughly enjoyed the somewhat hectic nature of the fights, it made everything seem just a little more epic even if you didnt make it to illidan. So i think they should continue to produce 10 and 25 man verions and when the final battle against the Lich King comes out it should definately be a 40 man raid.
I think that maybe they should seperate them again. You get the great 10 mans like Kara but also amass an army and take down the lich king
I agree with both Shamtastik + Maltreth
I love the epicness of 25 people vs a HUGE boss and then 10 people fighting something smaller, (Mag vs Zuljin) for example.
It would do wonders for keeping things fresh. I've farmed the crap out Naxx10 with my guild and have recently begun getting into Naxx25 with a friend's guild, but in essence, it's the same grind, just different drops and a bigger struggle to get moving. So I get to farm the crap out of the same dungeon, just with more lag, different people and less cohesion.
i dont like the fact that 25mans drop better gear than 10 mans, face it people, THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME FUCKING THING , if anything 10 mans are harder because if one guy fucks up there its most likely a wipe. If one guy fucks up in 25 mans nobody gives a shit and you can still easily down the boss
I think when we get to face the Lich King, it will be atleast a 25man raid.
But before entering the Citadel we might have to collect a couple of items to complete a key or some ritual that you have to complete before the gates can open.
Or that the Citadel will be made out of some smaller instances, where u need to defeat the bosses to get acces to the main raid.
But that isn't the topic :) Our guild now has the problem to get everyone into Ulduar10, most of us cleared naxx10 and 25 and are ready for Ulduar10 but can't because the officers want to clear it first.
So in patch 3.2 there will be a 10 and 25 colleseum normal and 10 + 25 heroic, if they could do that with the other raids it could limit guildcomplains.
I think this is a great idea honestly.
First off, I've run a few ten-mans. Perfectly fine and content with it, very awesome. I've run one twenty-five man in the entire game, VoA, and I found it to be QUITE an annoying experience.
First, the lag was horrible. Even if it is just my computer, that's like forcing me to upgrade my PC just because it can't handle an ASS load of people in one instance at once. Yeah, great, thanks Blizzard.
Secondly, there's so much shit going on. I honestly don't know HOW the healers deal with it, especially the "raid" specified healers. But even if you're not a healer, there's so many people around it just gets confusing.
In the end, I think ten-mans would be perfect for a game-wide dungeon limit. I'd be able to DO the raids, it'd be fun and easier to actually START, plus, like stated, loot would come easier considering we don't have, what, an extra 15 people to share with?
As for the topic about "epicness", I'd have to say get over it. Sadly, WoW is not meant to have epicness in any sense of the word. You can say it's epic to defeat a dragon with forty people, or an old god with twenty-five, but either way, it never makes sense. I've heard stories of Anub'arak being this bad-ass traitor king who helped Arthas out of so many situations, involving the old god himself even, and what do we get? A five-man instance, one of the easiest out of them all. Yeah, SO epic, amirit?
SPOILER ALERT
I've heard from a friend he IS brought back in the next patch, but even so, he's BROUGHT back, as in "lore-wise" he's been killed once already. I question the epicness of this badass more and more.
SPOILER ALERT
Bring into view some bigger bosses then? Kel'thuzad. He's an arch-lich, do you honestly think "realistically" 25 people would be a threat to him? I highly doubt it. Oh, and don't even get me started on Malygos. A DRAGON ASPECT? 25 people?! Please. Pathetic.
And finally, both old gods, in AQ and Ulduar. They're OLD GODS. You know, the guys who were like the size of a portion of the planet? They're buried underground and whatnot? Hell, AQ was just an avatar, not the actual Old God himself. And furthermore, since AQ was 40-man and Ulduar max is 25, that's claiming he's much more powerful than Yogg is. Little bit insulting maybe?
The epic enemies from Warcraft lore brought into WoW will never be put to the standard of epicness they were meant to be on. It's just impossible.
I agree with Wonocva, you're not going to get a truly "epic" feel unless you send half the damn server at a boss at once and that's just not feasable. In all honesty, the less people, the more accomplished I feel. I could've sworn the point is that we're heroes of some measurable power. If ten of us can't shit-kick some villain, then we're not very epic are we?
In any case, we kind of need to suspend disbelief (despite already doing so, since it's a fantasy game) in order to justify dungeons or the enemies we face. I mean, how much did Thrall annihilate shit in Battle for UC? Between him and Sylvanas, they could curbstomp anything a raid has done so far. How about Onyxia being soloed? That doesn't make sense lore-wise. Just play the game and be happy with that. You want some "realistic" role playing, go throw on some elf ears and buy a lute.
It's almost never a good idea to remove content from a game, after all it is entirely possible to progress to ulduar without ever setting foot in a 25 man dungeon, many players would leave if all the new content lacked 25 man versions. The reason we have both modes is to keep all the players happy, some people like it to be large scale and some like it small scale.
Come on. I wouldnt have the same senseation and awesome sense of acomplicement if i killed Ragnaros with 9 of my friends, (i know 5 well geared lvl 80 can do it now).
But i'm afraid of loss of acomplisment and feeling of doing something grand and bigger then what most of the other players are able too will take something away from the game.
IMO blizz should try and keep at least some epicness in the game, like they did with Algalon.
first of all i been "that guy" several times in pvp and pve i often got the last blow on a bosswhen the group was close to a wipe or last blow on a horde ganker.
that said we are not joking around either we may not be manchioned in the lore as all great and powerfull like many of these bad guys are but if you listen to the introduction when you first make your character the words may difer but one thing is the same it is your duty to bring honnor to your race and your class trainers train just for that we are not running at them with a rusty sword a bucket for a helmet and a wooden shield at them we are charging with eveyrthing we have earned going from 1-80 and while all these bastards manchioned above rely on brute demonic power we have the power to addept to thebosses learn thier abilitys and ways to avoid them or withstand them thats what makes thisd game so great each of these SOB are like a puzzle some easier to figure out others not so much but i do agree that to defeat someone like the LK you need all the help you get can get i am sorry if you feel that you need 100 people for you to feel the epicness but for me a well planed out intence battle whear the slithest mistake can kill you is the definition of epic
killing regnaros with 40 60 doesnt mean anything anymore
I think it's worth remembering that thousands of people START playing WoW everyday, from level 1. ProjectLore and most of its fan base are veteran 80's so I think the excitement from the players in this community of doing new and fun things don't necessarily represent a very large chunk of players. That said, people who are new to the game see videos and such of large 20+ man raids and think it looks FUN. They don't look at that and think "oh man, I hope that raid drops good gear."
Dragoro is right, the new-found 80's are going to be excited to band together as large of a grouping of players as possible for a single raid, while the veterans are in it for the gear, and raid size is not necessarily relevant to them. Keeping everyone happy.
1,000s join and yat wow is still at the 11,000,000 mark we been at it for a while veterans get bored of doing the same old crap and leave as i commented in the http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/3p2/isleofconquest.xml post this game needs freshness in order to keep the customers ocupied
damn wrong link
http://sandbox.projectlore.com/blog/adventures-on-the-isle-of-conquest/
i like it more to the large scale. 40 man and a huge boss that requires alot of strategy to down and if you got the boss down everybody jumps of hes chair or whatever and screams in the micro.
i thought ulduar was getting a bit harder but after the damn nerfs (again) it doesnt feel satisfied for me.
I hope the new dungeons and raids are gone be a challenge or else i quit wow.
Because im waisting my time on a game that even a 8 year kid can own.
While I would have enjoyed being part of a 40man raid I can understand why they don't have them anymore. On my server there are FEW guilds that have 40 people in them that could think about raiding if Naxx/Ulduar were 40 man raids. Progression would slow to a creep and many guild mergers would be necessary to reach the right number of people to be able to raid each week.
Though I still think it would have been cool to see. Hopefully in the future they will include a 40man raid. Perhaps on Arthas or some HUGE boss we don't know about yet.